RuneScape Forum Archive | F2P Extensions

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

As for the stone spirits - I do think you should remove the scaling factor. It will make them entirely unviable to use for higher levelled variants in either case compared to the copper/tin and orichalcite/drakolith variants, while the value increases for igenous ores slightly from tier to tier, it doesn't multiply itself. For sedimentary ores like coal and mithril already are worth less than their copper/tin variants.

It 'kinda' works for silver and gold right now, but the additional value of gold doesn't exactly justify yet another lost spirit.

I think they instead could implement a system like they're using for herb seeds. Allow players to use multiple spirits at once, albeit at a reduced conversion rate.

Seeds can be consumed at 1/2/4/7/10 at a time for 3/5/8/12/15 reward rolls without compost (which also have a chance to be saved at higher farming levels). Translating it to stone spirits it could be consuming 1/3/5 spirits for 1/2/3 additional ores, which would allow players to decide on their own volition if it's worth sacrificing their spirits (with the current system it's usually fairly clear to burn them down as fast as you could, but I don't know what the effect of the actual consolidation might be). Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 07:21:54 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 07:26:57 by Rikornak

Seasons Past

Posts: 594 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Without a scaling mechanism, would stone spirits not become unviable for lower ores? It wouldn’t make economic sense to trade the same number of the same kind of spirit for mithril when you could get adamantite or runite instead.

Setting aside market forces, T60, T70, and T80 materials would be treated as having ¼, ½, and ¾ the value of the T90 material. That seems like an appropriate conversion rate.

Similarly, T1 would be treated as one 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th the value of the other materials in its category.

Iron would be 2x copper/tin, half of mithril, and a third of runite; etc.

These figures all seem reasonable, given the relative benefit of moving up by each tier. You would essentially be replacing the type of stone spirit used with the number of spirits. Instead of having to switch to an entirely different kind for an ore 10 levels higher, you would just pay one more than you did before. The difference in value among ores would be accounted for, just in a more fluid way.

I think the seed system would work better for the current stone spirit system than a condensed one. Types of seeds can’t be combined, so for seeds it makes sense to work within a large set of individual categories. The problem with current stone spirits is that they get outclassed way too quickly due to each type being trapped at a single tier. The seed system wouldn’t really improve their value, as people would just burn them up as quickly as possible as you said. Most people would probably still not touch them for the first several core ores, preferring to save them for where they’d pack more punch.

As I see it, the purpose of combining stone spirits into fewer categories would be to make them all more relevant by making them useful for longer. I introduced scaling to balance the value between different ores within each category. The increased consumption is somewhat of an illusion, as their greatly expanded utility would collectively boost the value of all stone spirits. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

07-Jan-2024 12:04:06

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Not per se. It depends on two factors - availablility of the spirit and the actual value of the end product - which is rarely enough related to the level alone, but rather how useful it is - there is a reason why runite is fairly comparable to quite a few higher levelled metals - you do need it for elder rune in addition.

https://runescape.wiki/w/Ores

You just assume something, that isn't the case. While the ores do increase in value from tier to tier for most of the part - coal and mithril are some extreme exceptions from the rule with the former probably granted to pieces of content like the living rock caverns and kingdom managment - we're rather talking about an increase of a few percent for most other things. Not a few hundred percent. The sole ores, which roughly doubles its value compared to its predecessor are coal, adamant and runite (ignoring the fact you could go for luminite instead).

If a spirit with fixed costs for any ore becomes unfeasible to use for some distinct ore, you just would (temporarily) stop using them for that distinct ore. You might potentially ensure making them unfeasible to use for anything, but the lowest tiered variations.

https://runescape.wiki/w/Elemental_anima_stone
https://runescape.wiki/w/Catalytic_anima_stone

It's probably easier to see with anima stones - elemental variant is fairly straight forward - you can use them for any rune, but earth. Let's assume it would use your scaling factor - water runes tank in value, earth will cause even more loss, fire will be broken as well. The catalytic variant is a bit hard to come by and thus sketchier in general, but it works for most runes - mind and body runes obviously are useless trash, cosmic and law runes aren't required in that big numbers, chaos runes are a bit niche and death runes appeal rather to medium levelled players. Every other rune right now is commonly needed and thus profitable - a scaling factor would kill off the stones for good. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 14:57:34 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 15:36:06 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

This is partially given the fact, that catalytic anima stones are still rather rare, since you only can obtain them in a couple of places, while the elemental variant became quite common from fetid zombies and bound skeletons, which are commonly fought to level necromancy. I wouldn't be too concerned about stone spirits for that matter, since they're all commonly enough, but as it stands the scaling factor can cause enough damage over status quo.

We already had had this with spirits barely available. Was an issue for most spirits above t60 and especially light animica, but also for copper and tin on the other side of the spectrum - which both only became viable to use in early 2023 with above-mentioned zombies. The spirits were there, but since they were more expensive than their ores, you couldn't use them.

In general I would expect sedimentary stone spirits to already become more expensive to use for iron, coal and adamant (albeit for that one the fact is to blame those spirits still drop in so many places, where they certainly do not even remotely would belong), while it certainly would become quite a bit cheaper for runite. The scaling factor would already hurt iron quite a bit more and have a more than brutal effect on luminite, adamant and runite - unless the sedimentary spirit assumes the current value of adamant

For igneous spirits I wouldn't expect too much of an impact, since most kinds of spirit are comparably available. But I doubt anyone right in their mind would increase their investment costs by times 5, if they could see comparable results with t60 ores - and also faster than that... Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 14:58:08 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 15:25:08 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

For precious the actual impact would be a bit harder to evaluate, since it will newly feature an ore, which right now doesn't even have something like a market value, as well as shifting around, which ore is used at what point. I would expect something like a shift in favour of gold though. A x3 scaling factor on the other hand would kill it instantly, since the spirits are almost the worth of gold - using three of them features no justification whatsoever once again. So in the end you'd probably use them exclusively for blurite. Very slight possibility for silver, if that spirit won't increase too much baseline.

In general using multiple spirits for more ores is rather thought as a sink, which adds a component to decide where it might be a good idea to use more of them. Considering it's hard to tell how the market would develop with all those changes, so this could be something for a later time. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 15:16:15 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 15:23:55 by Rikornak

Noctis King

Posts: 91 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

For the reward of treasure trail beginners:

Sets of:

Bronze armor trimmed and gold trimmed

Iron armor trimmed and gold-trimmed

Wizards armor pieces trimmed and gold-trimmed will belong to beginners. (For easy rewards, wizards armor will be replaced by SpiderSlik trimmed and gold-trimmed armor, and medium rewards will contain spitbark trimmed and gold-trimmed armor.)

Leather and Hard Leather Trimmed and Gold Trimmed.

Oak composite bow

ImpHide Mind Staff

Iron Cane

Amulet of Defense (t)

Monk Robe (t) and (g)

Some sort of costume item

Small Primastic Star

Common rewards for beginners will have it own drop table that not shared with P2P treasure trail.

07-Jan-2024 21:00:38

Seasons Past

Posts: 594 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Rikornak

After seeing the prices of ores, I see your point now. The scaling I proposed outpaced the increase in ore values with level.

I would just get rid of categories altogether, since that was the issue. For scaling, I’d propose:

T1-30 (1)
T40-60 (2)
T70-90 (3)

@Noctis King

I ran out of space on the Activities section, so I added a link to your post in the Introduction. I’d omit prismatic stars, as bonus XP is P2P, but everything else looks good. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

07-Jan-2024 21:16:43 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 21:41:06 by Seasons Past

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

So you basically would break it down into one singular stone spirit, which is consumed in ever so larger numbers based on its level alone? It's possible I am misunderstanding something right now, but I see a couple of different issues in there.

- Gold and silver (and blurite per your concept) are not core ores. So I wouldn't bind them onto core ores with an entirely different purpose and especially much higher levelled variants, since this can have an even more volatile effect on them, than just the inclusion of blurite.
- You are placing one of your tiers amidst the cutoff point from sedimentary to igneous/metamorphic geodes. As a member you'd certainly prefer to mine ores, that will grant you the latter.
- You still try to attempt to apply multipliers , when your profit margins differ only by a few percent from ore tier to ore tier. I certainly wouldn't go for anything in the third category and I'd only consider mining runite, because it's so incredibly valuable compared to lower ores right now. Ironically the t60 ores would be an option, if you were trying to push your luck towards a metamorphic geode. But I just can't see any other ore to work - the lower ones pale in comparison, the higher ones get eaten up by your multiplier.
- In general I do think a multiple categories system is easier expandable. If they hypothetically would extend mining to level 120 later on, they just would need to give us a stone spirit used for level 100 and higher ores. Obviously taking the anima stones again we would need a new distinct type for necrotic runes, rather than including them onto the catalytic variant. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 22:01:35 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 22:04:36 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,237 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

- And even if they do not expand metals on a vertical fashion, it can happen they'll do something with the existing ones - some hefty p2p based smithing update, would heavily affect the f2p economy at the same time for instance, if things are not kept split.

If you absolutely would want to punish players for going to higher levelled stuff, the only thing I could see working would be some mechanic like you've got a n % chance to consume an additional spirit - and that to be fair is vile RSC-esque design punishing players for something they can't affect. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

07-Jan-2024 22:01:41 - Last edited on 07-Jan-2024 22:05:58 by Rikornak

Seasons Past

Posts: 594 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I based the revised scaling on current ore prices. As stone spirits are the dependent variable, whose value is based on ore, stone spirit prices should be treated as indeterminate for the purposes of a speculative rework.

According to the wiki, all T1-30 core ores go for less than 1k.

T40-60 are around 2-2.5k, with adamantite and drakolith being outliers at 1.2k and 3.2k.

T70-90 are between 3k and 5k, with most being close to 4k.

In the revised proposal, each of these three groups of ores would respectively consume 1, 2, and 3 stone spirits.

Given this information, the math roughly checks out. Every unit spent of a hypothetical, unified stone spirit would approximately increase the return onefold. In fact, the return is significantly better on average at higher versus lower levels. As every stone spirit would be the same price, a high-tier ore would just need to give you 3x or 1.5x the value of a low- or mid-tier ore respectively.

To address your other criticisms:

The difference in price between runite and orichalcite is currently 30 gp. Drakolith is significantly better, with almost 800 gp more profit than the other two. As a result, you would be incentivised to mine drakolith, which is higher than runite and gives you igneous geodes.

The inconsistency between stone spirits and geodes might be counterintuitive, but that’s more of a psychological issue than a mechanical or economic one.

The precious metals might be an issue, due to gold being so much less valuable than luminite. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

07-Jan-2024 23:40:56

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