RuneScape Forum Archive | The Defence of Saradomin

Raleirosen

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Lego Miester said :
Most of it is nonsense, but there may be some truth in the self-fulfilling prophecy idea. Saradomin is generally only malevolent when you defy him.

Thus, by seeing Saradomin as an ass in DoC, and denying him at every turn, he came off as an ass.
Agreed, that ties into the "two Saradomins" thing, with how he acts differently depending on how you treat him. I'm not sure if malevolent is the right word though, since his intentions are almost certainly good in every instance.

Lego Miester said :
The idea that this icyene was some masochist trying to get punished to prove a point though is lunacy.
Yep. I was surprised at how moderate his analysis was at first (basically he offered the two explanations while voicing his preference for the one in which Saradomin was acting for the greater good), then I check again a day or so later and he's modified it to include this ridiculousness. It's depressingly typical. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

13-Dec-2013 22:14:32 - Last edited on 13-Dec-2013 22:15:21 by Raleirosen

Nerevarine x

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Lumen Vector said :
I'm not sure your revision answered this.

Lumen Vector said :
Only problem I have with your Garlandia argument is if she thought gods' were corrupt before her wings were torn off or only after...

She clearly did, because she tells us that she believed they were corruptible and flawed, and denied helping Saradomin to underline that point. She was expecting a negative response or punishment, she wanted to confirm her own biases.

14-Dec-2013 00:16:59

Nerevarine x

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Raleirosen said :
Nerevarine x said :
We learn Garlandia had innate prejudices against Gods, she believed them to be corruptible and flawed.

Her beliefs and subsequent actions also demonstrate a self fulfilling prophecy. For those who are unaware, a self fulfilling prophecy was coined by Robert Merton, a famous sociologist. It is defined as a "false definition of the situation evoking new conduct which makes the originally false conception come true."

In Saradomin's case, Garlandia's beliefs were false.

Garlandia believed so strongly that Gods were corruptible and flawed, it evoked a new behaviour from her (defying Saradomin publicly) with the intention of proving she was correct. Such a behaviour was likely to cause results which confirmed her theory (punishment), thus reinforcing her bias that Gods are corruptible and flawed.
This is nonsense. Are you really trying to assert that Garlandia held that prejudice before she defied Saradomin?

As Zilyarine would say, there is no evidence for this and is entirely based on speculation.

Why is that nonsense for? Of course that's what I'm proposing, it doesn't sound unrealistic in the slightest. Notice how she uses the words 'Gods' and not Saradomin specifically. She may have had a negative impression of 'Gods' in general, she says that her belief is they are corruptible and flawed.

You'd be surprised how many people in the world have a bias with very little good reason but alternatively she could have been influenced by actions of other Gods, who knows?

You say it as if it's impossible but that's not what the lore says. The evidence is in her dialogue.

She believed Gods were corruptible and flawed, and she refused to help Saradomin to underline that point. She was seeking confirmation for her own bias, anticipating a punishment or negative reaction against her. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

14-Dec-2013 00:20:17 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 00:25:40 by Nerevarine x

Solanumtinkr

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Whether she thought of it before or after the main incident is up for question, but I won't argue with you about it. I wrote a short story on the banquet just for fun and someone finished it off with an addition. Why don't you read both of them and give me your opinion, being a hardcore Saradominist. Just click here. I think it works well enough for both sides. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

14-Dec-2013 00:30:46 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 00:53:41 by Solanumtinkr

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

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A C P L said :
@Unicornz pwn
and here's another list...
(copy, pastes, and replaces Zaros with Zamorak)
I was gonna actually star all the Zaros' and put a footnote or something at the end saying fell free to substitute for any god but only had 3 characters at the end of the original list.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 00:46:29

Nerevarine x

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Raleirosen said :

The idea that this icyene was some masochist trying to get punished to prove a point though is lunacy.

Actually it isn't lunacy, self fulfilling prophecies happen all the time, and the person can be consciously aware of it.

The University of Michigan says a self fulfilling prophecy has four steps:

1. Perceiver has expectations about how target will behave (Garlandia thinks Gods are corruptible and flawed - including Saradomin since he's a God).

2. Perceiver then behaves in a way that is likely to elicit the expected target behaviour. (When Saradomin asks Garlandia a question at the banquet she embarrasses him publicly, an action likely to cause negative results.)

3. Target indeed behaves in a way that confirms perceiver's expectations (Saradomin punishes her for humiliating him.)

4. Perceiver sees predicted behaviour (Garlandia is reinforced in her conviction that Gods are corruptible and flawed since Saradomin punished her).

Example of conscious self fulfilling prophecies which matches Garlandia's circumstances (source: University of Michigan)

- You expect your new roommate to be shy so you don't speak much to him after he moves in, and he therefore does seem shy. (There's no good reason to suspect he is shy but you believe he might be so you refrain from any discussion. In reality your roommate isn't shy at all, so this is a false definition which leads to a conscious action that reinforces what you thought to begin with).

- A coach expects his freshmen to be uncoordinated and unskilled so he does not play them often, and when he does they are rusty and do not perform well. (The coach has this expectation for no good reason, or he believes his freshmen will be uncoordinated based on previous years experience).

This relates to Garlandia if she had contact or knowledge of other Gods who were corruptible and flawed, this bias is carried over.

14-Dec-2013 01:00:52 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 01:05:00 by Nerevarine x

Jul

2020

Dennorak

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I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

14-Dec-2013 01:11:19

Nerevarine x

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Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.

14-Dec-2013 01:14:17 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 01:16:49 by Nerevarine x

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol
I love how I have yet to have him or any Saradominist ever comment on any list I have ever made, and we both know I've made plenty...I mean come on, this one was really basic and nearly identical to listing by bullet point. Very easy to read and would only take about 30 seconds (I assume most Saradominists are slow readers). It is just a simple comparison between Zaros and Saradomin- No response as of yet, I remain optimistic though.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:17:54

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nerevarine x said :
Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.
You are speculating based off the information you have. Since there is no solid in game fact that supports your opinions and are only providing evidence to do so it is speculation.

Pay more attention to people's wording.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:19:23

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The Defence of Saradomin