RuneScape Forum Archive | The Defence of Saradomin

Nerevarine x

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Unicornz pwn said :
Nerevarine x said :
Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.
You are speculating based off the information you have. Since there is no solid in game fact that supports your opinions and are only providing evidence to do so it is speculation.

Pay more attention to people's wording.

There is, her dialogue is solid in game evidence supporting a self fulfilling prophecy.

14-Dec-2013 01:21:17

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nerevarine x said :
Unicornz pwn said :
Nerevarine x said :
Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.
You are speculating based off the information you have. Since there is no solid in game fact that supports your opinions and are only providing evidence to do so it is speculation.

Pay more attention to people's wording.

There is, her dialogue is solid in game evidence supporting a self fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, I agree there is a supposed slight evidence to support your claim and already said there was. However, evidence is not enough to prove any of it, you need it to be confirmed in game or another credible source for it to not be speculation, until then that is all it is.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:23:35

Nerevarine x

Posts: 5,941 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@ Unicorn, in relation to your list.

Zaros can commit acts which are wrong (the near slave-like conditions in his Empire for example), but he can make up for it, just like Saradomin can.

Zaros can also have good reasons for why humans lived in those appalling conditions (I don't know what they are, but it's possible).

A lot of the other sentences on your list aren't really important and I don't see how they're pertinent.

But to answer your general question that seemed to be the purpose of your list, Zaros can redeem himself for things he has done, I have always maintained nobody is beyond redemption. Zaros can also have good justification for things, I just don't believe that myself and don't argue it.

14-Dec-2013 01:24:13 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 01:32:07 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Posts: 5,941 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Unicornz pwn said :
Nerevarine x said :
Unicornz pwn said :
Nerevarine x said :
Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.
You are speculating based off the information you have. Since there is no solid in game fact that supports your opinions and are only providing evidence to do so it is speculation.

Pay more attention to people's wording.

There is, her dialogue is solid in game evidence supporting a self fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, I agree there is a supposed slight evidence to support your claim and already said there was. However, evidence is not enough to prove any of it, you need it to be confirmed in game or another credible source for it to not be speculation, until then that is all it is.

Well I wouldn't say it's slight evidence, her dialogue matches exactly what a self fulfilling prophecy is, I even found information from the University of Michigan that is identical to her situation. It's just a matter of connecting the dots.

At least for now it's a viable explanation, there wouldn't any way to find a factual statement on whether she committed a self fulfilling prophecy, it's more of a deduction based on lore, it's not like people admit to it.

14-Dec-2013 01:27:52

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nerevarine x said :
@ Unicorn, in relation to your list.

Zaros can commit acts which are wrong (the near slave-like conditions in his Empire for example), but he can make up for it, just like Saradomin can.

Zaros can also have good reasons for why humans lived in those appalling conditions (I don't know what they are, but it's possible).

A lot of the other sentecnes on your list aren't really important and I don't see how they're pertinent.

But to answer your general question, Zaros can redeem himself for things he has done, I have always maintained nobody is beyond redemption. Zaros can also have good justification for things, I just don't believe that myself and don't argue that
Yes I agree that Zaros can be redeemed and most likely will. The point was Saradomin has done near identical things if not worse things then Zaros and you insist that he is better. You have no proof Zaros would do those things again, especially since it has been confirmed he will be a much more passive god in the 6th age yet you insist he is beyond redemption and claim he is evil in the present. I don't see how Zaros is somehow this all evil being when the only real information we have on him is that he broke some promise, though I completely see why he chose not to grant it up front and he can't be blamed for not being able to do so before his betrayal, as well as his empire wasn't so great a place to live in and he has some evil followers, just as Saradomin does. To claim that these things justify claiming he is evil is quite a stretch in my opinion.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:31:19

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:36:47

Nerevarine x

Posts: 5,941 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Well yeah, I don't have proof Zaros would do those things again, but I never said I did have proof.

Although, one piece of evidence is Zaros' lack of emotion and understanding, which makes it difficult for him to change and comprehend mortal needs and feelings. This means he cannot learn from mistakes, such as the humans suffering in his Empire.

I'm sure you would argue otherwise, but I don't.

I didn't insist Zaros was beyond redemption, I said he *wasn't* beyond redemption. I have said before that nobody is beyond redemption, if they change and do good, they can make up for past errors. That only seems fair.

However, I see Zaros changing as an issue for him, he's naturally manipulative and deceptive, which I consider evil.

Again, you might think otherwise.

Now, I don't think Saradomin has done worse things than Zaros, he has made wrong decisions sometimes and on other occasions (such as Garlandia's wings being removed) I believe it was totally justified for the greater good.

You might believe something different.

The important thing to remember about my Zaros is EVIL thread, is that it is my perspective that he's evil I don't ever say it's a fact. Why do I think he's evil? Well here's my evidence in-game to support that view. You don't need to accept it, but I've compiled it here to strengthen my position.

14-Dec-2013 01:39:49 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 01:44:17 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Posts: 5,941 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Unicornz pwn said :
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.

That's only because they're unaware of a self fulfilling prophecy, not exactly a common term is it?

Just because people may read it and not recognise it's there doesn't mean it isn't.

You do know this thread is about a defence for Saradomin correct?

In the absence of Saradomin's own explanation for the events I've used the lore to support my own perspective.

I don't have a direct confession by her, like I said it's deducing it from her dialogue but it appears quite obvious (if you disagree then fine, but I believe my argument is realistic and possible if she had biases against Gods for a long time).

Does it mean that explanation is 100% correct? No it doesn't, I do have a 2nd idea about why Saradomin removed her wings.

Had that dialogue not been there, I would not have proposed such an argument about a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm not creating a purely speculative theory without any foundation. The dialogue is the key.

14-Dec-2013 01:40:47 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 01:47:41 by Nerevarine x

Dec

2023

Unicornz pwn

Posts: 3,009 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nerevarine x said :
Unicornz pwn said :
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.

That's only because they're unaware of a self fulfilling prophecy, not exactly a common term is it?

Just because people may read it and not recognise it doesn't mean it isn't there.
It very may well be there, as I said before, however as I also said before, there is no proof whatsoever that she preformed a self fulfilling prophecy. There are many interpretations of the dialogue and until we know exactly what she intended or meant and Saradomin gives us his side of the events, we are unable to do anything but speculate on it further. You could be right, there is proof that you are right, but that doesn't mean you are right or that you are not speculating. You are guessing as to why something took place and then why someone had a certain reaction, albeit with proof, but it is still speculation.

"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

14-Dec-2013 01:47:26

Jul

2020

Dennorak

Posts: 4,414 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nerevarine x said :
Dennorak said :
I love how when anyone else speculates Nerevarine always is the first one to say stick to the facts. Then when negative Saradomin lore comes out, he immediately starts speculating lol

But it isn't speculation since I directly quote the lore that supports my view.

lol

If Garlandia never said that dialogue, then my perspective on it being a self fulfilling prophecy wouldn't be valid since I have no evidence to think it's likely.

Pay more attention to the thread content.
Unless its a fact, then it is speculation. Right now all we know is Saradomin ripped Garlandia's wings off for not fighting for him, did she want him to do that? Maybe, maybe not, but we don't know for sure, therefore it is speculation whether you are afraid to admit it or not

Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

14-Dec-2013 01:47:49

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The Defence of Saradomin