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Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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Unicornz pwn said :
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.


To me, reading the exact same words , she denied Saradomin to prove a point that he was not perfect and the icyene did not have to follow him.

Saradomin promptly counters by proving a point that they did have to follow him.

No masochism, no conspiracy to deliberately provoke Saradomin to satisfy pre-existing biases, nothing. Just her attempting (or, if you want to stuff a little bias in, daring ) to talk to Saradomin as an equal.

Saradomin is not nice. He admits as much himself. He will do harsh, even cruel things if it means furthering his long term goals of order and peace for the mortals under him. If her words could damage the commonplace unquestioned obedience of Saradomin and their willingness to fight for him, then she was an obstacle.
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14-Dec-2013 01:49:00

Unicornz pwn
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Unicornz pwn

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Nerevarine x said :
Well yeah, I don't have proof Zaros would do those things again, but I never said I did have proof.

Although, one piece of evidence is Zaros' lack of emotion and understanding, which makes it difficult for him to change and comprehend mortal needs and feelings. This means he cannot learn from mistakes, such as the humans suffering in his Empire.

I'm sure you would argue otherwise, but I don't.

I didn't insist Zaros was beyond redemption, I said he *wasn't* beyond redemption. I have said before that nobody is beyond redemption, if they change and do good, they can make up for past errors. That only seems fair.

However, I see Zaros changing as an issue for him, he's naturally manipulative and deceptive, which I consider evil.

Again, you might think otherwise.


Now, I don't think Saradomin has done worse things than Zaros, he has made wrong decisions sometimes and on other occasions (such as Garlandia's wings being removed) I believe it was totally justified for the greater good.

You might believe something different.


The important thing to remember about my Zaros is EVIL thread, is that it is my perspective that he's evil I don't ever say it's a fact. Why do I think he's evil? Well here's my evidence in-game to support that view. You don't need to accept it, but I've compiled it here to strengthen my position.

Considering I do disagree I will only say this, Zaros has indeed changed his ways on how he will rule and how he will act in the world. It has been confirmed that he has so there is no reason to disagree. The rest of your points are opinions and I have different opinions, neither can be proven so until one of us is proven right I'm afraid we must "agree to disagree."


*shudder* :@
"Ego Te Provoco."

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14-Dec-2013 01:51:08

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Lego Miester said :
Unicornz pwn said :
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.


To me, reading the exact same words , she denied Saradomin to prove a point that he was not perfect and the icyene did not have to follow him.

No masochism, no conspiracy to deliberately provoke Saradomin to satisfy pre-existing biases, nothing.


Why are you trying to belittle a self fulfilling prophecy as a conspiracy? I really do suggest you research it before riding it off as lunacy. I answered your post a few pages ago providing information from the University of Michigan.

Let's revise this slightly then: Garlandia denied helping Saradomin publicly at the banquet, to prove a point --->that she already believed in<---- that that the Icyene did not have to follow him and he was not perfect. This behaviour at the banquet resulted in Saradomin punishing her, which reinforced her own bias that Gods were not perfect and Icyene did not have to follow them.

The self fulfilling prophecy still applies, as long as she wanted to prove a point about Saradomin. Her actions due to such a pre-existing bias led to a negative response from him, which served only to further strengthen that bias.

14-Dec-2013 02:01:57 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 02:07:42 by Nerevarine x

Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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If I could just make an outline of what's twisted in your Galandria section:

Everything up to "most enlightening and intriguing dialogue of all." is just fine. Soundly backed, and mostly unbiased.

You don't sufficiently back your theory of her opinion of Saradomin being a self-fulfilling prophecy, and honestly I think you should just cut the entire section.

My conclusion is that Garlandia was a devious and manipulative Icyene, who posed a threat to Saradomin's command and goals. She deserved to have her wings removed.

This makes me want to punch you through my computer screen. It's as twisted as the post I analyzed a page or two back, full of unfounded insults in an attempt to demonize a character.

The impulse theory is perfectly fine, but remains completely headcanon on the details, as her description doesn't stretch that far. Was he just that hurt/angered by what she said? Did one of his generals, like Zilyana, insist she face justice, and he couldn't risk being seen as weak, so he went along with it? Could be anything at this stage, all we know is he was visibly embarassed.
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14-Dec-2013 02:09:33

Nerevarine x

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The self fulfilling prophecy is a perfectly valid perspective, I have made a further revision to the section with details from the University of Michigan which makes it more clear, if you care to read.

I may change the conclusion yet again, but do I believe her wings should have been removed so I won't not say it.

14-Dec-2013 02:14:18

Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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Nerevarine x said :

The self fulfilling prophecy still applies, as long as she wanted to prove a point about Saradomin. Her actions due to such a pre-existing bias led to a negative response from him, which served only to further strengthen that bias.


More like replaced it. She came in disliking the war, and seeing Saradomin as an equal, no more perfect than the rest of them. She came out brutally injured, with an intense loathing for Saradomin as a monster.

A self-fulfilling prophecy is something that was not true that someone makes true by their actions. In this case it was already true that Saradomin was flawed, and already true that the icyene had to fight for him. His actions only reinforced these truths.

Nerevarine x said :
In Saradomin's case, Garlandia's beliefs were false.

"Gods are like us - corruptable and flawed - but with devastating power at their disposal."
True.

"When a god calls, we do not have to answer."
This one's different actually. It was false to the loyal icyene and Saradomin (but always true for her), and Saradomin acted deliberately to reinforce that. (but it remained true for her.) More complicated, but still not a self-fulfilling prophecy. To one group, it was false and stayed false, to the other, it was true and stayed true.

By contrast, a self-fulfilling prophecy would be Garlandia saying aloud "Saradomin will rip my wings off." and Saradomin going " That's a great idea! "
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14-Dec-2013 02:20:42 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 02:55:40 by Lego Miester

Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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Now that I think about it, if Saradomin has bowed to her wishes, being utterly persuaded by her, to no longer make the icyene obey him, that would have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The thing is that Saradomin did not become corruptable and flawed due to her actions.
Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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14-Dec-2013 03:00:26 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 03:03:35 by Lego Miester

Vardan

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By contrast, a self-fulfilling prophecy would be Garlandia saying aloud "Saradomin will rip my wings off." and Saradomin going " That's a great idea! "[/quote]

I have no idea why that made me laugh but it did. Ugh I think my cold is ******** with my brain.
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14-Dec-2013 03:18:38 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 03:19:20 by Vardan

Raleirosen

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Allow me to quote Jon Stewart in addressing Zilyarine's posts over the past two pages:

Original message details are unavailable.
"There is so much crazy going on here. So much crazy I don't even have time to deal with [this insane Saradominist]."
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

14-Dec-2013 03:25:23 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 03:27:01 by Raleirosen

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