Unicornz pwn
said
:
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.
To me, reading
the exact same words
, she denied Saradomin to prove a point that he was
not
perfect and the icyene did not
have
to follow him.
Saradomin promptly counters by proving a point that they
did
have to follow him.
No masochism, no conspiracy to deliberately provoke Saradomin to satisfy pre-existing biases, nothing. Just her attempting (or, if you want to stuff a little bias in,
daring
) to talk to Saradomin as an equal.
Nerevarine x
said
:
Well yeah, I don't have proof Zaros would do those things again, but I never said I did have proof.
Although, one piece of evidence is Zaros' lack of emotion and understanding, which makes it difficult for him to change and comprehend mortal needs and feelings. This means he cannot learn from mistakes, such as the humans suffering in his Empire.
I'm sure you would argue otherwise, but I don't.
I didn't insist Zaros was beyond redemption, I said he *wasn't* beyond redemption. I have said before that nobody is beyond redemption, if they change and do good, they can make up for past errors. That only seems fair.
However, I see Zaros changing as an issue for him, he's naturally manipulative and deceptive, which I consider evil.
Again, you might think otherwise.
Now, I don't think Saradomin has done worse things than Zaros, he has made wrong decisions sometimes and on other occasions (such as Garlandia's wings being removed) I believe it was totally justified for the greater good.
You might believe something different.
The important thing to remember about my Zaros is EVIL thread, is that it is my perspective that he's evil I don't ever say it's a fact. Why do I think he's evil? Well here's my evidence in-game to support that view. You don't need to accept it, but I've compiled it here to strengthen my position.
Considering I do disagree I will only say this, Zaros has indeed changed his ways on how he will rule and how he will act in the world. It has been confirmed that he has so there is no reason to disagree. The rest of your points are opinions and I have different opinions, neither can be proven so until one of us is proven right I'm afraid we must "agree to disagree."
Lego Miester
said
:
Unicornz pwn
said
:
The main part of it though is that from the start you interpret the dialogue to mean one thing while someone else could interpret it in a completely different way and thus never deduce that she was ever attempting to preform a self fulfilling prophecy. It is speculation based off that you are interpreting the dialogue as one thing, which could be wrong, and then speculating on it further by reaching conclusions that can't be backed by anything else other then your own self's interpretation.
To me, reading
the exact same words
, she denied Saradomin to prove a point that he was
not
perfect and the icyene did not
have
to follow him.
No masochism, no conspiracy to deliberately provoke Saradomin to satisfy pre-existing biases, nothing.
Why are you trying to belittle a self fulfilling prophecy as a conspiracy? I really do suggest you research it before riding it off as lunacy. I answered your post a few pages ago providing information from the University of Michigan.
Let's revise this slightly then: Garlandia denied helping Saradomin publicly at the banquet, to prove a point --->that she already believed in<---- that that the Icyene did not have to follow him and he was not perfect. This behaviour at the banquet resulted in Saradomin punishing her, which reinforced her own bias that Gods were not perfect and Icyene did not have to follow them.
The self fulfilling prophecy still applies, as long as she wanted to prove a point about Saradomin. Her actions due to such a pre-existing bias led to a negative response from him, which served only to further strengthen that bias.
14-Dec-2013 02:01:57
- Last edited on
14-Dec-2013 02:07:42
by
Nerevarine x
If I could just make an outline of what's twisted in your Galandria section:
Everything up to "most enlightening and intriguing dialogue of all." is just fine. Soundly backed, and mostly unbiased.
You don't sufficiently back your theory of her opinion of Saradomin being a self-fulfilling prophecy, and honestly I think you should just cut the entire section.
My conclusion is that Garlandia was a
devious and manipulative
Icyene, who posed a threat to Saradomin's command and goals. She
deserved
to have her wings removed.
This
makes me want to punch you through my computer screen. It's as twisted as the post I analyzed a page or two back, full of unfounded insults in an attempt to demonize a character.
The impulse theory is perfectly fine, but remains completely headcanon on the details, as her description doesn't stretch that far. Was he just that hurt/angered by what she said? Did one of his generals, like Zilyana, insist she face justice, and he couldn't risk being seen as weak, so he went along with it? Could be anything at this stage,
all we know is he was visibly embarassed.
Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
OSRS Lore: Xeric
Slepe Tight - Slepe Lore
The self fulfilling prophecy is a perfectly valid perspective, I have made a further revision to the section with details from the University of Michigan which makes it more clear, if you care to read.
I may change the conclusion yet again, but do I believe her wings should have been removed so I won't not say it.
The self fulfilling prophecy still applies, as long as she wanted to prove a point about Saradomin. Her actions due to such a pre-existing bias led to a negative response from him, which served only to further strengthen that bias.
More like replaced it. She came in disliking the war, and seeing Saradomin as an equal, no more perfect than the rest of them. She came out brutally injured, with an intense loathing for Saradomin as a monster.
A self-fulfilling prophecy is something that
was not true
that someone
makes true
by their actions. In this case it was already true that Saradomin was flawed, and already true that the icyene
had
to fight for him. His actions only reinforced these truths.
Nerevarine x
said
:
In Saradomin's case, Garlandia's beliefs were false.
"Gods are like us - corruptable and flawed - but with devastating power at their disposal."
True.
"When a god calls, we do not have to answer."
This one's different actually. It was false
to the loyal icyene and Saradomin
(but always true for her), and Saradomin acted deliberately to reinforce that. (but it remained true for her.)
More complicated, but still not a self-fulfilling prophecy. To one group, it was false and stayed false, to the other, it was true and stayed true.
Now that I think about it, if Saradomin has bowed to her wishes, being utterly persuaded by her, to no longer make the icyene obey him,
that
would have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.
By contrast, a self-fulfilling prophecy would be Garlandia saying aloud "Saradomin will rip my wings off." and Saradomin going "
That's a great idea!
"[/quote]
I have no idea why that made me laugh but it did. Ugh I think my cold is ******** with my brain.
We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
14-Dec-2013 03:18:38
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14-Dec-2013 03:19:20
by
Vardan
Allow me to quote Jon Stewart in addressing Zilyarine's posts over the past two pages:
Original message details are unavailable.
"There is so much crazy going on here. So much crazy I don't even have
time
to deal with [this insane Saradominist]."
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.
14-Dec-2013 03:25:23
- Last edited on
14-Dec-2013 03:27:01
by
Raleirosen