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Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Balustan said :
Mod Stu also said we were to make up our own mind about if he was lying or not. J mods cannot be relied on we have established this. J mods themselves have acknowledged this.

Man, what on Earth is wrong with the code for quoting? I have to edit quotes just to make them look half way decent...

Anyways, while he did say that, the fact that his intent as the writer of the quest was to have Saradomin "be earnest in his response, and genuinely regret the actions of his past." Not seem earnest. BE earnest. The statement itself leaves no ambiguity as to Saradomin's own intent, even if he tried to make it seem so afterwards.

I'm not denying at all that Saradomin made a terrible mistake and depending on how things go with the Wand of Resurrection, he may never be able to make it up (I want the option to help restore the Naragi, but knowing the mods, the wand's probably going to explode at the end of the quest line).

But I honestly believe his words of regret, and his desires to protect people. He isn't perfect, but there's enough good in there for me to follow him and help protect the world and its inhabitants. If I truly believed a tenth of the things guys like Lethal said, I'd have become an Armadylian long ago. But I don't (mainly because their accusations of lying have no basis of evidence at all).

Besides, Jagex wants Saradomin to be redeemable. To be flawed, but well meaning. Him being an ambiguous god in that respect along with some of other gods makes it much more interesting from a writing perspective. We have enough bwuhaha from Bandos as it is (though, Zammy trying to steal Christmas is also messed up, and makes me sad...).

So many people from different factions have tried to hammer down my own for so many months, I often question why I even come here...and that's the saddest thing of all, because I play this game almost solely for lore. Questing and such is my reason for playing. *holds quest cape*

07-Dec-2013 19:15:51

Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

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We have Guthix memories. We have a key that can time travel. Forget the Wand, travel back and snatch a few Naragi, without anyone seeing of cause. Start with Aagi, the cellar was crushed, that doesn't mean he saw anything and if you wait to the last second he'd even still 'feel an emptiness' at the appropriate moment. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

07-Dec-2013 19:32:04

Cybernet377
Aug Member 2008

Cybernet377

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Solanumtinkr said :
We have Guthix memories. We have a key that can time travel. Forget the Wand, travel back and snatch a few Naragi, without anyone seeing of cause. Start with Aagi, the cellar was crushed, that doesn\'t mean he saw anything and if you wait to the last second he\'d even still \'feel an emptiness\' at the appropriate moment.

So, the plan is to save some Naragi from dying in their world's godwars, so that we can bring them into our world, which has an even bigger godwar going on, that we know will bring in the god that massacred them all to begin with?

Most of the Naragi would be running back through the world gate before it finished closing.

Not to mention having to break the news to Aagi that her dad is dead.

My plan:

1. Put Seren back together and help her get her personalities under control.
2. Enchanted key to save Aagi
3. Introduce myself as her adopted big brother, and Seren as her stepmother
4. Teach her to call me onii-chan
4. Introduce all of the other gods as distant relatives.
5. All of the gods are too busy spoiling her to fight seriously.
6. Godless win without anyone dying.

08-Dec-2013 05:18:56

Dantalian

Dantalian

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Let's see if I understand this:

Saradomin wants to protect Gielinor from outsiders. Okay, sounds good. To do this he.. came to Gielinor (as an outsider?) and is bringing more troops from the... outside? So, he's the outsider god who's going to protect us from outsiders? Okay...

Saradomin's war (which you yourself admitted was a war) with the Naragi started some time after (possibly immediately so) he arrived on the Naragi homeworld. He also brought in troops from outside to help fight this one.

So, if I understand this, Saradomin, who's only wish is to protect his followers from outsiders does this by visiting various worlds, telling them to join him, and if he gets an unfavorable response, he brings in his followers (whom he's trying to protect) out of their homeworld and into one where they are outsiders, to fight in a war against the non-followers in worlds where he is an outsider?

Ah, but let me guess, this is one of those many convenient incidents (you bring up many in your post) where we are to "give Saradomin the benefit of the doubt" because "he is a good god" and thus would never do anything evil. In other words, Saradomin only does good things, ergo he is good, and because he is good any apparent evil thing is not really evil, but actually a good thing, we just don't know enough. Given this, I presume Saradomin is the good of circular reasoning as well as order.

While we're on the subject of the outsider-god-who's-here-to-save-us-from-outsiders, in your "Zammy is evil" thread, you raised an objection with Zammy's actions because he did something to people who could've been happy in their routine. How do we know the Naragi weren't happy in their non-Saradominist world? Oh wait, is it because Saradomin only does good things and therefore is good and therefore any questionable thing (like ruining a race's happiness by starting a cross-world war) is actually a good thing as proven by evidence that conveniently can't be found? "He appears in the Form of a Man with many Countenances; and he hath a Book in his right hand. His Office is to teach all Arts and Sciences unto any; and to declare the Secret Counsel of any one."

08-Dec-2013 10:12:26

Dantalian

Dantalian

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Now onto the next set, time to talk about Elsepth...

I'm going to ignore the whether she's part Icyene or not argument, it's kinda irrelevant.

But, about the enchantment. First let me actually quote your quote from the book:
Original message details are unavailable.
To which Tasgall implied: "Your icyene-blooded sorceress enchanted them."

Mazakon uttered in response: "You should be glad your village is in Saradomin's territory. Do you know the Army of Zamorak's recruitment tactics?"

Note something missing? A denial. Mazakon never contradicts the statement that the young men are enchanted. Instead, his answer is more along the lines of an admission "So? Zamorak is far worse!"

You also argue that Elsepth's voice couldn't be responsible for making a young man so devoted to Saradomin, though you concede, Elsepth's voice has power. Now note the tone of her song "She sang as a young man's lover"... I think you need to review your history, it's filled with people doing crazy things over love and infatuation. The song seems to have the power to cause drastic infatuation, during which she helpfully provides the incentive by singing of how proud she would be if her lover fought and died for Saradomin.

The author himself gives us evidence of this, when he mentions that he felt it was not faith in Saradomin that spurred him to action, but feelings for Elsepth.

So Saradomin was at the very least consenting to using an enchantress to draw young men into fight for him.


Now about those golems. We know Uzer could mass-produce them (as they did so to fight Thammaron) therefore it clearly was NOT a supply issue. Furthermore, as Icyene are hinted at as being larger than humans, you could apply medical tech to more humans than Icyene if you used the same amount of clay.

You argue even if such were the case, Saradomin had no say in this. Why? Were humans too low for him to notice or care? Or were the Icyene (who have shown almost mindless devotion to him) suddenly defy him on this one order? "He appears in the Form of a Man with many Countenances; and he hath a Book in his right hand. His Office is to teach all Arts and Sciences unto any; and to declare the Secret Counsel of any one."

08-Dec-2013 10:38:55

Dantalian

Dantalian

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Now let's move on to Senntisten.

You argue that Saradomin sided with Zamorak once (the bandits of the bandit camp seem to disagree) to attack Senntisten. Here's a nice question. Why?

Senntisten was the last Zarosian city to fall. It had withstood attacks for a very long time. (I believe it was centuries) During this time, there is no evidence to suggest it was trying to expand. In fact, it would be foolish to do so. The city apparently did not have advance lines or armies in the field, as it is noted that there only defense against the invasion was Wahistiel trying to get the Saradominists and Zamorakians at each other's throats.

So all evidence we have points to a city that's pretty much able to hold it's own, but that's about it. What's Saradomin trying to protect his followers from by attacking it? Having their skyline blotted out by those obnoxious tall walls? Or maybe trying to protect the future crop yields coming from Senntisten's farms that would feed Saradominist mouths if only, just only, the Zarosians would kindly stop Saradominists sent to gather the fruits of Zarosian labor. I mean, given these grave threats against his followers, the justification of invading, uprooting lives, and killing untold numbers of civilians was completely justified.

Also, by nature of being the god of circular reasoning, we also know that the citizens of Senntisten couldn't have been happy with living in that city or you know, eating their own food or being alive. I mean, as we know (see Elsepth) all people or more than happy to die for Saradomin's cause. They just need the right incentives to see it that way. "He appears in the Form of a Man with many Countenances; and he hath a Book in his right hand. His Office is to teach all Arts and Sciences unto any; and to declare the Secret Counsel of any one."

08-Dec-2013 10:47:58

AverageFurry

AverageFurry

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@Mewzard

The Oxford definition of the word 'mistake' (noun) is this: "An act or judgement that is misguided or wrong."

Saradomin, in his arrogance, intended to destroy Askroth and then sent an army to wage war on the Naragi, possibly in an attempt to exterminate them because they had refused to worship him.

I don't deny that he regrets what he did and that his actions haunt him, and that he may still be redeemable (if he gives me a Blue partyhat), but it certainly wasn't a mistake, as many Saradominist lore enthusiasts claim.

08-Dec-2013 11:57:21 - Last edited on 08-Dec-2013 12:13:57 by AverageFurry

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