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Balustan

Balustan

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William Witt said :
Just popping in. Haven\'t read all the posts.\n\nNoctiseus, that sentence doesn\'t appear to imply that the city contains nothing but the elderly and the infirm. Indeed, the rest of that portion of the text appears to make this exceedingly implausible. (They talk of making the journey north and say the elderly and infirm cannot do so—If everyone is elderly and infirm, how is anyone to take the journey they were just describing?)\n\nThat sentence seems to me to simply be saying that the elderly and infirm members of the population won\'t be able to make the journey north, not that the entire population is elderly and infirm.\n\nAs for what Azzanadra said, I have long said he appears to be incorrect on that count—If you look at the displays on the ground floor of the Museum of Varrock, you can find a Zamorakian coin marked \'Senntisten\'... It looks as though the Zarosians abandoned Senntisten (allowing Zamorak to capture it), not fought to the death like Azzanadra imagined.\n\nAlso, Saranthium was a separate settlement built in the area much later (perhaps Senntisten was genuinely gone by then).

Im surprised so few people grasp the implications of what the measures taken to ensure they can travel mean from that book. They slaughtered the sick and elderly rather than let them be tainted by the other gods. A horror story from the Zarosians (not Zaros himself).

Azzanadra is wrong but his reasoning behind thinking that is what happened is correct. Also surely he'd have expected his friend Wahi to tell him given his great shame there.

The Saradominists destroyed the city itself. That much is clear when they fought the Zamorakians later.
Lewis
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Quester
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07-Dec-2013 14:10:42

Balustan

Balustan

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Nerevarine x said :
@ Balustan page 12 - Regarding the Icyene and humans\n\nSergeant Mazakon said:\n\n"This is why there are no humans in the High Command, you don\'t live long enough to see the whole picture. \n\n" The Front has moved twenty kilometres south in the last hundred years . Zamorak sends powerful demons to raze every settlement they can reach. If we stop pushing back, Uzer itself could be in danger."\n\n This makes perfect sense, the God wars carried on for centuries and Icyene Commanders can assess the situation for a long time, they can see the progress that is made on the battlefield and can make tactical decisions in hindsight that humans could not, simply because they don\'t live long enough to understand patterns of enemy behaviour and attack. \n\n____________________________________________________________________\nHumans were not considered weak by the Icyene or Saradomin, I counter this fallacy in my section on "The Song From Before the War". \n\nMazakon tries to recruit them for a reason, Elspeth was likely blessed by Saradomin with a voice that can obliterate ripper demons, and the author of "The Song From Before the War" fights valiantly, along with other humans.\n\nAfter his village is ruined he continues to fight for Saradomin in the army.

They thought them weak and unintelligent as evident by the unable to see the whole picture. Also they are ageist. Not to mention using them as canon fodder is hardly a good thing. They were mere peasants not soldiers.
Lewis
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07-Dec-2013 14:13:00

Balustan

Balustan

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Mewzard said :
Solanumtinkr said :
It\'s canonical fact that NPCs can be wrong in how they describe what theysee, that NPCs do lie and Saradomin learned not to try and force worship, so he will lie, omit and twist things beyond all recognition, if he thinks he can get away with it. \n\nMod Stu, the writer of The Death of Chivalry, stated that he intended Saradomin to be earnest in his response, and genuinely regret the actions of his past.\n\nYou keep assuming he\'s just lying and twisting things, but the mods do seem to support that he has changed for the better. Just because you don\'t like him doesn\'t give you the right to just declare everything he says as false.\n\nAn ability to lie doesn\'t mean it\'s guaranteed. Yet, you say he WILL lie as if you\'re some sort of absolute authority on his character. At least I (and some others) use evidence when it comes to discussing character and lore.\n\nYou\'ve really had the tendency to defame Saradomin\'s character with no real evidence, just stating that "he lies" with no evidence that he does so.\n\nI have a cavalcade of quotes I\'ve found over time from Mods and bits of lore ready for such conversations (and try to keep up with new ones for my topic)*****'s nice to have informed arguments about characters, hence why I don\'t like to hate on characters/gods I don\'t have anything valid against (Which is why it\'s mostly hating Bandos and Sliske, since they made it personal against me and my friends in game).

Mod Stu also said we were to make up our own mind about if he was lying or not. J mods cannot be relied on we have established this. J mods themselves have acknowledged this.
Lewis
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07-Dec-2013 14:15:21

Balustan

Balustan

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Neo Bestia said :
Sapun said :
A land ruled by Saradomin would literally have nothing interesting going on.\n\nProof: Entrana. \n\nNonsense, during Enlightened Journey you get to see an angry mob in action! :P \n\nOh, and I woun\'t really comment on the alleged Zarosian Genocide until more info on the 2nd age is released. And probs Saradomin and Zamorak will have a few things to say on that regard as well.

2nd age info won't reveal anything about a genocide that occurred in the 3rd age though.
Lewis
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07-Dec-2013 14:16:41

Neo Bestia

Neo Bestia

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Balustan said :
Neo Bestia said :
Sapun said :
A land ruled by Saradomin would literally have nothing interesting going on.\n\nProof: Entrana. \n\nNonsense, during Enlightened Journey you get to see an angry mob in action! :P \n\nOh, and I woun\\'t really comment on the alleged Zarosian Genocide until more info on the 2nd age is released. And probs Saradomin and Zamorak will have a few things to say on that regard as well. \n\n2nd age info won\'t reveal anything about a genocide that occurred in the 3rd age though.

I stand corrected. It was late at night on my country and I didn't bother to look closely on every detail of what I had posted. I still hold the essence of the post to be true.

07-Dec-2013 14:39:25

Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

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Nerevarine x said :
Solanumtinkr said :


As long as you recognise the Icyene's militant attitude and looking down on humans, otherwise your analysis is pointless. No god has seen humans as more than something to walk over until present time and someoare only just waking up to it. It may require their own precious favoured few getting their rears kicked up between their ears by humans to get it to really sink in, in some cases.


My analysis isn't pointless if I have valid reasons to contest the claim that the Icyene looked down upon humans.

Anyway, there's a lot of explanation and I admit the Icyene may have been bigoted or have a sense of superiority over humans depending on particular circumstances which can't be determined - but ONLY in relation to the golem limb issue.

I find Sergeant Mazakon has a good reason for why humans were denied positions in the High Command, I also suggest Mazakon's treatment of Elspeth (when he calls her a useless human woman) isn't as shocking or prejudiced as people make it out to be.

But if you decide to read it you'll learn more than my brief post here, it's just a summary. .



Elspeth's voice is a natural talent and not a gift from Saradomin. Any pointers in that direction is simply a saying and not the literal ttuth. Unless you wish to insist "I am happy as Saradomin made me." is also literally true, for having created and still creates the image of each and every human that's been and to come. I know you won't as you have more sense, at least I'd hope so. Some times words are just that, words and nothing more.


By denying the bigotry, which is still visible, you also deny the chance to show how things are changing for the better. Of course if you want to show that those people learn nothing in all this time, that is your purgative. I'd go with the 'things are getting better' approach if I was writing it, but it's up top you. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

07-Dec-2013 14:42:36 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 14:49:43 by Solanumtinkr

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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^ If Elspeth's gift wasn't from Saradomin (which seems unlikely, since how can a human destroy ripper demons using her own voice naturally) it doesn't matter.

It doesn't make a difference to my interpretations really, it just seems more logical Saradomin had blessed her with the ability as the author theorises.


As for the Icyene and bigotry, in the case of the golem limbs I don't deny it or confirm it. It's possible but there's also other explanations.

I believe the Icyene are definitely more of a priority to receive golem limbs, as they are more important to the war effort than humans.

We don't know how plentiful the supply of golem limbs were and how many Icyene needed them either, these factors need to be answered but we don't know the details.

As for humans being denied positions of High Command I have good reason to think that is not a prejudiced decision and Mazakon's treatment of Elspeth isn't really shocking given the circumstances of the situation he faced. (More information in the thread).

07-Dec-2013 14:57:13 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 14:58:13 by Nerevarine x

Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

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Some people are born with natural gifts, you're selling people short by claiming someone else is responsible. Elspeth's was her voice. Kenith's is unusual magic. The Moonclan has learned to use magic without runes. We the player, seem to able to learn anything we can turn our hand to, far beyond what's normal.

It's called evolution and innovation.

No divine intervention required. It seems that on Gielinor humans have reached a tipping point and are advancing in numerous ways. It's something new and it is also what will finally see people seen as more than being their to service them. Zaros saw the potential a long time ago, though he dies before it was realised. The other gods are only just catching on. And that is not necessarily a bad thing, since it means that higher up positions in their hierarchies will open up to humans as well. Which wasn't the case before the 4th age. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

07-Dec-2013 15:06:56

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