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Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Nerevarine x said :
We also know Saradomin wanted to destroy Zaros' armies.Innocent people may have been killed amidst this chaos, but I argue the evidence to accuse Saradomin of genocide is insufficient and ambiguous.

In my opinion i don't think this is true, sorry


But our city now faces an unprecedented threat. The massed armies of Zamorak and Saradomin approach us at once, each larger than any army the city has repulsed before. Wahisietel's attempts to set the armies against one another have failed.

With a heavy heart, I therefore decree that we are to abandon the Holy City and retreat to the strongholds of Carrallangar, Dareeyak and Ghorrock. This will be a difficult transition, and discipline is essential. The elderly and the infirm will not be able to make the journey north. I authorise you to use all necessary means to control the civilian population.

( Book of the Gods )

When Saradomin and Zamorak attacked Sennistien there was only elderly and wounded people. So essentially Saradomin and Zamorak invaded a city filled with people who could hardly defend themselves, yet they tried their best, we know this for Azzandra says that the must have fought bravely before Sennistien fell, so this prove not only did they invade a defenseless city, they killed all the elderly and wounded people.

Then they buried it, and then built a new city on it so that it could be quickly forgotten.


Lastly it seems as if the Zarosian had been inactive since the fall of Zaros, they had all been waiting for the return of Zaros, yet they had to be on the defencive side because even though they no longer waged war on Saradomin he attacked them for hundreds of years, and considering they were mostly human at this point, that's saying something

07-Dec-2013 01:07:32

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Solanumtinkr said :
It's canonical fact that NPCs can be wrong in how they describe what theysee, that NPCs do lie and Saradomin learned not to try and force worship, so he will lie, omit and twist things beyond all recognition, if he thinks he can get away with it.

Mod Stu, the writer of The Death of Chivalry, stated that he intended Saradomin to be earnest in his response, and genuinely regret the actions of his past.

You keep assuming he's just lying and twisting things, but the mods do seem to support that he has changed for the better. Just because you don't like him doesn't give you the right to just declare everything he says as false.

An ability to lie doesn't mean it's guaranteed. Yet, you say he WILL lie as if you're some sort of absolute authority on his character. At least I (and some others) use evidence when it comes to discussing character and lore.

You've really had the tendency to defame Saradomin's character with no real evidence, just stating that "he lies" with no evidence that he does so.

I have a cavalcade of quotes I've found over time from Mods and bits of lore ready for such conversations (and try to keep up with new ones for my topic). It's nice to have informed arguments about characters, hence why I don't like to hate on characters/gods I don't have anything valid against (Which is why it's mostly hating Bandos and Sliske, since they made it personal against me and my friends in game).

07-Dec-2013 01:27:31 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 01:28:06 by Mewzard

Vardan

Vardan

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Wow Saradomin really rustles a lot of jimmies around here or would Nev be the one who seems to drag everyone out of the woodwork? Regardless interesting read
We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

07-Dec-2013 04:05:06 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 04:06:28 by Vardan

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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@ Lego Miester page 12 (tried to quote your post but it's not working).

I'm not using a straw man argument. Many lore users have said Saradomin neglects humans, doesn't care about them and prioritises other races over them, I was merely repeating what I've read various times and addressing that point.

There's three things to consider:

1. In the "Song From Before the War", Elspeth is a human with an amazing singing voice, who is able to vanquish ripper demons themselves. It goes without saying that Saradomin would be appreciative of her role in the war, I see no reason why he'd resent humans when she was so important.

When the author asks Elspeth how she can sing so beautifully, she says she practices a lot. So, maybe she did or perhaps Saradomin blessed her, as the author theorises?

If Saradomin endowed her with such a gift, he obviously holds humans highly.

2. Then there's the fact Sergeant Mazakon came to the village to begin with. The Icyene and Saradomin wanted humans to join the war, they saw the potential they had or the contribution they could make to the war effort.

They clearly didn't discriminate towards them as weak.

3. The author himself fights bravely (I don't think you can deny that) charging a ripper demon in combat, he continued to enlist in the army of Saradomin even after his village was destroyed, determined to serve Saradomin

Based on that evidence, I see no good reason why Saradomin would resent humans or not care for them, they were loyal to him and courageous.
_____________________________________________________________________

Next you say Sergeant Mazakon used Elspeth to enchant (force) humans into joining Saradomin's army. When Elder Tasgall brought the topic up, Mazakon changed it and said: "Do you know the Army of Zamorak's recruitment tactics?"

Well, Mazakon is basically admitting Elspeth's singing is a recruitment tactic, he's comparing it to the recruitment strategies of Zamorak's forces.

07-Dec-2013 04:17:24 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 04:54:05 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Notice how a recruitment strategy doesn't mean Elspeth had the ability to enchant humans and control their decisions.

Mazakon essentially tells us Elspeth is used to rally the crowd, stir emotions and invigorate Saradominist faith, to create images of good defeating evil with her beautiful singing - all of this is designed to encourage humans to enlist, but it doesn't force them to do so.

That's what a recruitment strategy is, there's no allusion to her being able to enchant people into a trance where they cannot make their own choices.

Elder Tasgall was also wrong to call Elspeth an Icyene blooded sorceress because she was not Icyene blooded at all, as she admits to. Nowhere else in "The Song From Before the War" is she ever referred to as a sorceress either.
_____________________________________________________________________

The last part you mention is how the author doesn't understand the concept of peace.

I may have skimmed over that section as there were a lot of details to cover and I covered only the important ones.

The most likely reason the author doesn't understand the concept of peace is that humans don't live long, and the God Wars were raging during this time. He doesn't comprehend what it means to live without war, its been going since he was born.

I don't see how that relates to him being brainwashed.

You also state Elspeth was likely blessed by Saradomin because of her voice, I agree this seems logical since she can defeat ripper demons. We've seen she is capable of doing that first-hand.

It does not mean however, that her voice can be used to enchant humans and manipulate their minds so they cannot make decisions for themselves. We have no evidence for that.

Sure, it influenced the humans to enlist, it was a recruitment tactic by Mazakon (which is legitimate anyway) but it doesn't force them to do so .

07-Dec-2013 04:29:21 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 05:47:57 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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@ Noctiseus

There's several problems with the evidence you present.

The evidence seems indicative of Zarosians killing or harming their own elderly and infirm, not Saradomin or Zamorak.

Dagroda, Priest King of Senntisten says:

"This will be a difficult transition , and discipline is essential . The elderly and the infirm will not be able to make the journey north. I authorise you to use all necessary means to control the civilian population ."

1. Because the elderly and infirm could not make the journey North in the evacuation, Dagroda orders Zarosians to "use all necessary means to control the civilian population." Hence, it appears to me (can't be confirmed) like the elderly and infirm were executed, or in some way, "controlled".

If this isn't the case, I find it doesn't reflect positively on Zaros' followers if they abandoned Senntisten with their elderly and infirm inside, expecting them to fight Saradomin and Zamorak.
____________________________________________________________________

The next piece of evidence you utilise is Azzanadra. You say Saradomin and Zamorak killed the elderly and infirm because Azzandra said: the elderly and infirm " must have fought bravely."

2. But I've checked all possible dialogue with Azzanadra, searching for the phrase you used and it doesn't exist.

Anyway, let's assume Azzanadra did say that, how does he know? He wasn't even there, it's an argument of wishful thinking, in absence of the situation. He uses the word "must" because it's an assumption.

In my thread I use arguments from people who can be directly linked to the situation, but you're not doing this.

Kaigi's Journal about the Naragi and Tuska, Guthix's memory for the Naragi and Saradomin's perspective himself.

Fern for the subject of the centaurs, Julienne as a High Priestess of Saradomin, who knows intimately about her Lord, etc

07-Dec-2013 05:20:04 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 05:49:58 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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3. In addition, if the elderly and infirm "must have fought bravely" then they were enemy combatants, not civilians.

Child soldiers in real life are classed as enemy combatants, the elderly or infirm who fight against you are still the enemy as well.

That is a fact and reality of warfare. If they pose a threat and decide to engage in hostilities they are no longer civilians.

So if this is the case, there's nothing wrong with what happened. War is war.
____________________________________________________________________

4. Let's investigate another avenue, presuming the elderly and infirm didn't defend themselves. Senntisten was destroyed and rebuilt into a Saradominist city name Saranthium, it doesn't mean Saradomin slaughtered the innocent people in the city.

Remember, Nex's Followers explicitly draws reference to anyone who would not kneel before Zamorak as being killed. It mentions Zamorak for a reason - why would Saradomin systematically eliminate civilians who did not want to worship Zamorak? It's irrational.

Saradomin wanted to disassemble Zaros' Empire and build his own. It was an act of war and conquering (and no, to subjugate a fortress or town is not to commit genocide).

07-Dec-2013 05:20:58 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 05:45:24 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Balustan said :
Androme said :
How good an empire is for its people is not measured in material wealth. Also the Zarosian empire being safer for humans than Saradominist lands is actually false, the same mod we're talking about stated the complete opposite.

People like material wealth. Especially in medieval times. People would forgo happiness for it. It is perfectly reasonable to assume people would simply submit to any ruler especially one who will end up giving them more material wealth.

I do not believe he did state the opposite. He stated the humans felt safer and secure within their empire sure but the Saradominist Empire did not have the might of the Zarosian Empire which was until Zaros fell the most secure Empire with the most prosperous future.

Firstly, I find it completely unreasonable that humans would submit to a ruler simply because they offered great material wealth, when they suffered in near slave-like conditions lol.

Mod Jack stated that "The vast majority of humans in the Zarosian Empire were unsafe, unhappy and unprosperous."

Humans weren't secure in Zaros' Empire, they were miserable and did not thrive or flourish. More details are available on my 'Zaros is EVIL' thread.

So yes, Mod Jack did say it.

07-Dec-2013 05:57:39 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 06:06:33 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Vardan said :
Wow Saradomin really rustles a lot of jimmies around here or would Nev be the one who seems to drag everyone out of the woodwork? Regardless interesting read

If you haven't realised, there's a lot of unwarranted hostility towards Saradomin in these forums.

I've put forth evidence-backed views and I guess that rustle some people's jimmies :P

07-Dec-2013 05:58:02 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 06:22:33 by Nerevarine x

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