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(F2P) QoL Improvements v2

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Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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In general all you need to know for goblin diplomacy is where to get goblin armour - the quest practially enough provides you three sets you can find hidden in the village. Otherwise it's killing goblins until they drop them (which is something you could see). Dyeing stuff is something you could know by this point, since it's more likely to get to draynor village rather than the goblin village. I would agree on the quest giving you hints for both if needed. Mod Stu has revamped certain quests (albeit obviously stinkers more vile than this one) to more modern standards. If he feels like it I wouldn't oppose it, but I personally think the quest works well enough by its concept. For instance Olaf's Quest had had a pseudo agility challenge which historically was some RNG slaughterfest, which punished you harshly and thus was hated by lots of players. He changed it to some kind of puzzle, which gives you a subtle hint (alongside a punishment, which isn't closely as harsh). I think lost tribe could benefit from something similiar, but I think it's not even that much of trial and error - you can understand, that you should walk along the reinforced tunnels after a few failures.

Issue is - most of those things basically are covered within 20 levels - and not even that - an ironman already can steal humans for money and cake stalls for cake - with level 5. Thieves guild is purely a training method (so it provides no use whatsoever beyond that), Rogue's den (or rather its more modern iteration of the flash powder factory) is to receive two herblore skilling outfits. And yeah quests - a lot of things that go way past what f2p currently is. You literally would provide the justification to make any skill or content f2p that way.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 11:01:49 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 12:03:23 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As for agility. I generally think it would be better to fix existing courses, instead of introducing more - of course again from the perspective of the full game. The only niche in which something new could fit would be level 10 (would be the draynor course in OS). OS certainly wouldn't have needed 9 roof top courses - rather something like... 3 or 4 or so... RS3 certainly needs even less. Something to step up from gnomes/burthope. Otherwise - fix the things that are already there.

But all in all - that's a course for 1, a couple of agility obstacles, a quest only course, which actually would have been nice if it was available as something slightly higher levelled permanantely (yeah to be fair: great for a level 20 trial), 65, 52 and 70 - albeit the dorgesh-kaan course is one of those broken courses nobody would ever use, since the oasis would be much better. That has no substance at all. It's just for make the skill f2p, just for sake of it being f2p.

Issue again is - you're solely focussing on the training side (i.e. making the number bigger for that exact purpose). What exactly is the reward space? I wouldn't see it as too off if most (not all) agility obstacles in the free world could be passed within the first 20 levels. That would fulfill so much more than having 99 (or even 120, if you think a bit more into the future) levels of something, that doesn't bring you anything.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 11:02:09 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 12:08:09 by Rikornak

Balkj06

Balkj06

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Goblin Diplomacy is just outside Burthorpe, the starting area. Thus would be a one of the first quests a player does. They wouldn't be experience enough to know how to create the dyes.

That is Good Point you're making with Thieving. While I think there is enough content to train the skills just fine to level 99 in f2p.

Yes the skill itself doesn't provide enough for the f2p game. Update the pickpocket tables maybe? Maybe the Level 92 Rouge Captain provides some really good f2p equipment?

As for Agility. I think more run energy, shortcuts and better pickpocketing are enough reasons to train Agility in f2p to 99.

But Training Agility to level 99, won't be super fun. But the members game also has this problem.

Right, level 120 skills at the moment if a f2p can train to level 99 they can train to 120.
When 120 Agility and Thieving comes, this needs to be a very good thing for f2p. (This does applies to all F2p skills)

29-Jun-2023 13:38:44 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 14:16:56 by Balkj06

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
That with goblin diplomacy is a fair point actually. I had more thought of how the tutorial leads you from burthope to taverley to lumbridge - with the world to explore from there (or any older variation which spits you out directly there). But yeah obviously you could abort the tutorial in process and just go out on your own. To be honest - that really worth being reviewed by Stu that way.

The issue is - of course you could add some level 92 target with ultra cool loot in there - but then - do you really expect players to get up to 92 with the level 40 guard exclusively? No honestly - thieving could work as classical f2p skill, which roughly ends at 50 (even though it will extremely lack purpose - to gain a few coins no longer is a good point up there), even though it will have horrible holes up to that already.

Most p2p skills just are not like the f2p skills - they make use of the whole world even from 0 - the starting point for agility historically was the gnome stronghold - and the free areas are just a small fraction of that. Obviously farming, herblore and summoning would be a bit more bound by the resources themselves, instead of actual locations - but thieving, agility, divination - no chance.

Run energy isn't even remotely the problem it historically was. I can easily say the game plays more fluently at agility 1, than OS would be at high levels and with their agility set unless you drink a stamina potion - which comes with some hefty upkeep costs at lower levels - you just benefit more from shortcuts in here than you would be from a slightly better regeneration. OS is basically unplayable without agility, for RS3 it's a nice extra - but it certainly also works without. And as I said. You easily could cover most f2p accessible shortcuts easily with 20 agility. You don't need 99 levels for that, just because Jagex thought back in 2005 it would be adequate to need 70something for climbing over some knee high fence or so.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 14:24:31 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 14:49:02 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Big difference between a potential f2p agility and members. Members have some new viable (yeah - took them up to 2019 - agility was entirely broken before that - and only 2022 smoothed it out further) course every so often nowadays, members have other methods, which bring them further, members have d&ds which can passively level those skills over time if you just do not want to engage with them at all. F2p won't have any of that - and f2p would be forced to go through with underlevelled insanity. You can't really compare that...

Overall 120s are not different to 99s for free players at all - you're not really intended to go there, if at all you gain minor benefits for doing it - for most of the skills not even that - it's just for your hiscore rank. The game just allows you to go to this point, but that's why it's so important why some actual feature scope should be stretched out if this was to become real goal to strive for - it has to be reasonable to reach and it shouldn't get too sluggish, boring or repetetive.

In here again - if somebody likes to brainlessly grind to 99, 120 or even 200m, that is more than fine. But don't start asking for features, that force players to go to those points with methods that just are not intended for that. See it as something for your personal prestige, but don't expect to gain something for that. Members had undergone this transformation for all skills - at least 99 is reasonable to reach for all skills, 120 as well for the ones which go up that, sometimes even for the virtual skills actually. But there still are enough things, which become extremely grindy to get to 120 even as a member. But yeah - nobody forces you and you only miss out on a cosmetic cape if you wouldn't - that's the big difference.

Yeah sure maybe one day they might become real 120s, with actual benefits, which members can reasonably reach then. There your grind brought you a headstart. Others will benefit from a level flow, that's so much better.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 14:25:17 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 14:54:52 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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There is a reason why I want to see existing stuff fixed - not have even more broken crap introduced. No matter whether you refer to agility or thieving - they will be highly broken if they were just made f2p 'because why not'. Even the pieces of RSC design work better than that, since no matter how flawed their implementation is - somebody thought about how a progression could look like. And this means something.

Those skills just do not work as is in f2p - which you actually admit - so why are you still pushing that?
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 14:34:01 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 14:50:36 by Rikornak

Balkj06

Balkj06

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The tutorial ends outside the Taverly cave, which is even closer to Goblin Diplomacy start point.

After you're done with the tutorial, the game gives you some suggestion as to what to do next such as Train Archeology (6th Age content), Bossing (Requires combat levels), Construction (Requires lots of GP) or go to Lumbridge.

Most players would go to Lumbridge or do their own thing, the tutorial is over.

Doesn't really matter much. Jagex will want new players to train Necromancy. So Necromancy will be part of the current tutorial (Or the just give us a new one, the current tutorial is really bad)

A new and/or updated tutorial will give updates to the f2p game.

There is a bit more after level 40 Thieving. F2p would have Level 62 PP Rogues and at Level 65 Rogues Chests until the Level 92 PP Rogue Captain.

With Access to the Thieves' Guild, f2p will have the same best training method as members to level 62.

Running out of Run Energy does happen, getting Agility to level 5 is one of the 1st things to do on a f2p account.

A F2p Thieving would need Agility, And Agility needs fixing in the members game.

I think may be best to focus my efforts on making Agility more fun on members

Why I am going so hard on it, is because the f2p game needs a major quest line. Jagex can ether create one for the f2p game or give f2p a members quest line.
I think a members quest line is the way to go, but will require Agility and Thieving to be f2p.

Good points with the 120's f2p

The only skill f2p can train to 120 is Dungeoneering and that caps out very quickly.
However, the skill is design not to get sluggish, boring or repetitive.

If Necromancy does extremely well. Then I can see the other combat skills going to 120. F2p would get benefits with combat skills at 120 using T50 Rune equipment.

Or Necromancy may allow for 120 Runecrafting and f2p will be able to craft more runes at higher levels, giving more RC xp.

29-Jun-2023 15:46:07

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Ah I thought going to Lumbridge was still part of the tutorial experience. I knew they changed something after 2019, but not what exactly - something the likes they still sent you there, but removed the dedicated lumbridge tutorial tasks and instead just left you to your things. In general I do think the burthope tutorial experience does work - it's a bit a crippled version of the troll warzone from 2012, but overall it gives you a good taste how the skills without dedicated tutorials do look like.

I do not necessarily think Necromancy will be included in the tutorial experience. Divination, Invention and Archaeology also were independent of that. Obviously it will also be somewhere in Misthalin and Asgarnia, so new players naturally will stumble upon it eventually.

Stu worked on refining some old quests during the currently running game jam, albeit there is no guarantee, that this stuff is released at all. Albeit it seems like this time he just got rid of requirements, that do not fulfill purpose, but had been added... for reasons... back then. Maybe it will open something up for f2p I currently haven't got on the screen.

I'll stop commenting on agility and thieving - it's getting tiresome and just leads to nothing neither from your, nor from my side. I am saying it one last time. Both skills are at best nice to have, not essential. And you just don't come up with a concept, which ensures some fun and meaningful experience - yeah sure, nice that this and that thing exists in the f2p area. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but sorry to break it for you - having jumps of 20-30 levels between two features is not something like good game flow... ignoring the potential of that new unlock to be unviable to be an actually new method from that point onwards. And ignoring f2p features usually don't go up to those levels. With a good concept - gladly - but not like this.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 16:19:59 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 16:45:28 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The vast majority of quests Jagex gave to f2p ever since membership (back then in 2002) was released are standalone novice level things - yep novice level - not that 50 thing, that roughly is the transition to p2p - and even if some of the things are bigger than that, your magnum opus still is dragon slayer from 2001. You can't seriously expect them to suddenly stomp out a fully fledged quest series for f2p. That won't happen. And especially not at the price of them ripping out p2p features without any purpose and any return. Yes, a bit higher levelled things would be nice, but you need to stay realistic.

As for 120s (and even just 99s) It naturally will happen if you're forced to repeat the same thing for hundreds and thousands of hours.

The effect of your level alone on your combat power is there - but rather minor. I don't think I would be too wrong when I say someone with stats in the 70s and equipment will have a fair bit more combat power than someone with 99 stats and 50 equipment - albeit abilities could change things (but you learn your core abilities usually sooner than that). I wouldn't overestimate necromancy for this reason as well, since it also 'only' will have t95 equipment at first. I even could imagine them to be fairly comparable, since necromancy won't have dedicated accuracy and berserker auras for combat - which are huge for the other three styles. All in all I think necromancy will have its moments like the other three styles - but there will be situations in which something else is better - or necromancy wouldn't even work at all.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 16:20:06 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 16:43:41 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hard to tell if runecrafting is due to an expansion. But if it's not extended all together with necromancy I wouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon, since necromancy has some interaction, but rather limited - I could expect the runes to be around 20/40/60/80. Technically there wouldn't be any issue to allow f2p to craft more f2p runes - and giving them full access to the middle runespan floor. Chaos is there after all, Law and Cosmic could be part of an expansion, Nature... a bit harder admittingly... potentially via the GOP route at least though. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

29-Jun-2023 16:43:53 - Last edited on 29-Jun-2023 16:47:25 by Rikornak

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