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Comp Cape Rework Dev Update Thread is locked

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Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Rikornak said :
Lord Drakan said :
Please rename Lore to 'Quests and Lore' and Activites to 'Minigames and D&Ds'.


As far as I understand activities are more than just minigames and D&Ds, since tier 1 literally says including those two pieces of content. Maybe stuff like the player owned farm could be defined as an activity as well?

I am more inclined to put that under skills, to be honest. It's a bit of an ambiguous category of content between skills and minigames, and includes (I suppose)

- Livid Farm
- Herblore Habitat
- Artisans Workshop
- Jadinko Lair
- Warriors' Guild
- Romily's tasks (even though they suck)
- Hall of Memories
- Player-owned Farm
- Deep Sea Fishing
- Lava-flow Mine

and possibly some others. Creating a new category probably isn't worth it, but I'd chuck 'em under skills for the purpose of achievements.

~

Also, re: my "there are too few achievements in several categories" comment; note also that if completionism tiers are the union of the respective tiers in all other categories, then many new achievements have to be added in order to fix the problem of inconsistent comp requirements (e.g. Bones to Peaches yes but ancient teletabs no). And this includes some desirable stuff that would only logically go in the misc category (e.g. full armour case as I mentioned before).
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05-Apr-2019 13:12:58

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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Lord Drakan said :

I am more inclined to put that under skills, to be honest. It's a bit of an ambiguous category of content between skills and minigames, and includes (I suppose)

- Livid Farm
- Herblore Habitat
- Artisans Workshop
- Jadinko Lair
- Warriors' Guild
- Romily's tasks (even though they suck)
- Hall of Memories
- Player-owned Farm
- Deep Sea Fishing
- Lava-flow Mine

and possibly some others. Creating a new category probably isn't worth it, but I'd chuck 'em under skills for the purpose of achievements.


Yes, I guess that will be heavily semantics based on what would define an activity or not. Livid farm certainly would be more complex than the lava flow mine or the hall of memories, since either of them just focus on what you're doing all the time when training that skill - it just looks slightly different. But basically that's semantics (i.e. 'What makes a minigame a minigame?').

Lord Drakan said :
Also, re: my "there are too few achievements in several categories" comment; note also that if completionism tiers are the union of the respective tiers in all other categories, then many new achievements have to be added in order to fix the problem of inconsistent comp requirements (e.g. Bones to Peaches yes but ancient teletabs no). And this includes some desirable stuff that would only logically go in the misc category (e.g. full armour case as I mentioned before).


Certainly agreed on that. It's currently a bit hard to tell what might be added and what not - and not just that: What is shifted from the comp capes to the distinct skill capes? If getting all slayer souls would be a t2 skilling cheevo (then again - is slayer a skill or combat? - per definition it's a support skill, its pet is a combat pet though), that would already offer something to distinct those two capes from one another. Areas tier 1 and 2 have a 'likely be completed at the same time'-touch right now.
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05-Apr-2019 13:31:47 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 13:32:15 by Rikornak

Daibhi

Daibhi

Posts: 1,176 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
There's a potential future issue with the areas category that I didn't notice when I initially skim read through the second google document detailing how exactly this tiered system would be structured.

Now, while this won't be an issue for those with the "it's all or nothing" mentality but given how forgiving the tier system first appeared and taking into consideration the addition of future achievements with new content etc. this would be an issue later down the road for certain players - namely those who may choose to only focus on a specific category over the others.

Why? Well, for the most part, the example categories don't appear to force the player into another category in order to complete a specific one (apart from potentially lore) such as the areas category due to the music maestro achievement. This is when you start to see the hydra of complexity you may have unknowingly been nurturing throughout the years due to how you first introduced the comp system.

At first look I thought well, music maestro will require high level PVM thus forcing such a player to do the combat tier(s?) in order to unlock the respective area music tracks but then I realized that also ties into quests too (which is also starting to have borderline high level PVM mechanics seep into it as well ) so I'm not exactly sure how you could approach this.

If the system required you to complete all relevant T1 categories before you could progress to T2 and then T3 this wouldn't have come to mind. But if, with this new system , a player can move from T1 skills, to T2 skills after competing T1 and so on for example then having some achievements that are intertwined with all other categories or just one other separate category it will eventually repeat history by becoming the new "barrier".

05-Apr-2019 14:25:33

Daibhi

Daibhi

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In regards to music maestro I did float the idea at one point somewhere of potentially doing what you done when you removed mobilizing armies where, for those who didn't unlock the music tracks, could interact with a page by picking it up which then unlocked all the respective tracks tied to it-despite the minigame being deleted from the game.

As I said, this is only an idea so I'm not exactly sure how feasible it would be but one way of avoiding that barrier showing up later down road specifically for that category in particular could be doing something along those lines. But rather than it being an item that's picked up, maybe it could be tied to interacting with an aspect of the respective environment tied to wherever it would need to be.

Ultimately this won't be an issue for a real completionist (which we'll only truely start seeing once people start getting T3's completed and then we'll really see who actually walks the walk and not just talks the talk) but it will be for a regular player using this system individually as something to keep them playing thus risk losing them due to that.

As it stands this is initially only reorganizing and restructuring the comp system now as it is but, if what you've said is true, once you start to actually begin adding and regularly updating the system with newer and (probably) more difficult achievements with new content when its added -if you aren't weary of things like that it could get very complicated and end up back where it is currently.

I think you should try, at least, to make it feasibly possible for a player to complete a specifc category on its own without having it be intertwined with another category altogether. Maybe changing up existing single complicated to work around (for you) achievements in some way where that would be possible or something that could avoid that scenario.

05-Apr-2019 14:25:41 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 14:40:00 by Daibhi

Daibhi

Daibhi

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While at a glance that may appear to cheapen the actual completionist capes (T1-3), it wouldn't really. A player would still be required to complete all relevant categories of each respective tier to get them thus would still allow those capes to retain their prestigiousness, however the category specific uh.. capes? would have their own prestige, I guess?, but would likely be viewed as lesser than the actual completionist capes.

Plus you also have to take into account that if you are going to actively maintain this new tiered comp system alongside new content then well.. the ceiling is always going to be getting progressively higher and more difficult (especially in regards to reaper which is going to be a monostrosity) in order to retain and gain the actual completionist capes.

05-Apr-2019 14:25:47

Mr Rey Ray
May Member 2016

Mr Rey Ray

Posts: 6,274 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hey, Jagex.

Please stop with this entire rework and focus on the bank rework, there is no need for a completionist cape rework.

If you follow this update through you'll see a huge decline in players, we don't need 3 different capes that represent the same thing or feed peoples egos.

Nobody wants this update, I thought you would of learnt your lesson when you introduced EOC, you can avoid this.

Best Regards

Ray
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05-Apr-2019 21:04:44

ELITE STACK
Mar Member 2014

ELITE STACK

Posts: 8,082 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mr Rey Ray said :
Hey, Jagex.

Please stop with this entire rework and focus on the bank rework, there is no need for a completionist cape rework.

If you follow this update through you'll see a huge decline in players
, we don't need 3 different capes that represent the same thing or feed peoples egos.

Nobody wants this update, I thought you would of learnt your lesson when you introduced EOC, you can avoid this.

Best Regards

Ray
It won't.
I need my blue charms back.

05-Apr-2019 23:47:13

Aerro
Mar Member 2009

Aerro

Posts: 1,273 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I understand that the requirements on the current Google doc are by no means official, but, assuming that they are somewhat in the ballpark, I have some issues:

As a soon-to-be trimmed completionist (almost done with castle wars) and MQPC holder, I already have the majority of all the T2 and T3 requirements done for many of the six sub-sections. However, as it currently is written, I would be unable to claim the T2 or T3 completionist tiers simply because I am very bad at doing Telos (i.e. I have Death's store unlocked and have all the Kalg titles).

I feel as though this is more of the same problem: I could spend countless hours doing castle wars, chompies, livid farm, quest lore, etc. to earn T2/T3 in everything except combat, only to not have anything to show for it because I'm not skilled in killing extremely high levels of one single boss. For those that will say "Well, that's the point, for completionist you need to do EVERYTHING"--is this not the very reason Jagex is reworking the cape in the first place? Because people complained about not wanting to do countless hours for a single requirement to hold them back from the cape?

While I can somewhat agree with the idea that people don't want to spend time on non-combat requirements (Ports) to earn the best combat cape, I feel as though, for many, this is more of a I-want-to-show-off-my-accomplishments sort of update. For me, as someone who has the majority of the requirements in this game completed, I don't see any initiative in putting time into earning higher tier ranks from different categories if I know I won't be able to do them all (especially if it's only 1 or 2 requirements that are holding me back). If I'm feeling this way, what is that to say for players who have far less completed than I do?

tl;dr I feel as though the concept is interesting, but, again, the core issues will be in that high-level bossing will be the limiting factor in earning these capes for a lot of players.

06-Apr-2019 17:08:10

Uncl
Mar Member 2013

Uncl

Posts: 13,097 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
With the updates to the design doc I still have issues:

***

This seems to punish non-combat.

***

120s should be a T3 thing with rare exception; inv, dg, slayer. Runescape goes to 99 for most skills, so 120 for t1 is generally too high as we're still doing 99 activities. Maybe 113 for T2? 120/2=113, called 'half of 99 is 92'.

***

T1 combat should require 99 in all combat skills and slayer.
T3 should have the 120 in all combat & slayer
T2 requires 120 invention.
The whole point of this rework was for pvmers, so not having stat requirements defeats the purpose of this rework.

***

For skilling, T1 should be 99s in all non-combat, not counting slayer, but including invention.
T3 should be the 120s.
T2 requires 120 invention.
I don't see a benefit for skillers, explorers, or mini-gamers

***

Move Dg , and requirements, to either areas or mini-games.

As the xp for skilling in dg is a quarter(?) of the xp outside, it makes no sense to put it with skills. The dg pet depends on speed of a dg, which means you're skipping skilling.

Add right-click options to 120 dg cape, tele to dg, open party interface

***

Still not clear on how the passives are going to work. However, as this appears to be going forward, those passives should not be unlocked until the tier is complete - so as not to nerf the achievement

***

It looks like I'll be switching capes more often.

***

I don't see anything for capes below the max cape. No new capes?

***

Legacy capes should still be achievable or make them tradeable like the phats. Naturally, only those with the req's would be allowed to wear it or keepsake it. The built in effects of the capes should also stack with the new passives.

***

What do we get if we've completed the t1 and t3 achievements? Can I combine t1+t3?
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06-Apr-2019 21:37:33 - Last edited on 06-Apr-2019 22:55:37 by Uncl

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