RuneScape Forum Archive | Aftermath: Dead and Buried

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

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Crandor is just a small island. It is nowhere comparable to all aspects in Varrock and Falador. Even in Varrock and Falador, humans don't live in mines, especially with loaming mobs trying to kill them. Miners commute. That's why we are still commuters to Crandor even in 2023 when there is no Dragon to kill us.

Again, the Guildmaster doesn't know Ellamaria is The Raptor. Why you doubt the statement only 3 people survived the Elvarg attack but think the information on the map pieces is solid, but not the other way around?

You can think and doubt whatever you like in fictional NPC in a game, but don't diss the writers who created all those wonderful stories for us in the last 22 years. When they told us nobody except the player knows the identity of The Raptor, the guildmaster doesn't know it. When they told us Ellamara grew up in Varrock with their family killed in a HOUSE fire, they mean Varrock and nowhere did they say Elvarg and Crandor.

The more silly thing is why would Elvarg and Crandor be connected to Fort Forinthry and Misthalin later when Crandor is so far away from them.

26-Jul-2023 22:19:05

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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Show me your source that Ellamaria was raised in Varrock. I’ve looked everywhere for it. It’s kind of a problem for my theory if that were something you could prove straight away. We could cease this argument right now if you can produce that source.

—

You can’t look at the Crandor of today and assume that it is the Crandor of 40 years ago - and that’s not even accounting for the understanding that Scale Theory is officially in play and that there are actually entire towns in RuneScape that don’t exist to the naked eye (See: Lumford!)

See, Lumford does this thing where can safely assume Gielinor is actually larger than the player experiences it. If Scale Theory can be applied to obscure entire towns from the world map, it can also be employed to provide additional acreage to Crandor that would be suitable for many people to build homes on. What you see, isn’t all that is there.

From there, we have multiple NPCs tell us of the island’s relative importance in political clout and in trade - as well as their deceased relatives living there or that there’s pictures of people on the island.

What’s more likely. Crandor is bigger than the World Map suggests? Or only ten people lived there?

—

Why is that silly?

Overseer Siv, when mentioning that dragon that is rumored to be on Ungael, she compares it to Elvarg directly. Elvarg and Crandor is literally namedropped in Dead and Buried! Finally, Ungael houses a lab belonging to the same Dragonkin that created Elvarg in Dragon Slayer II.

We know we are to set sail to Ungael with the Raptor the next time we go out for a quest there. We could discover a document that mentions Elvarg on that island.

That’s -still- not silly.

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- July 31st, 2022

26-Jul-2023 22:49:07

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Just from Murder on the Border alone, we knew Ellamaria was a bar maid in the Blue Moon Inn. She was a friend of Bianca, who also lived in Varrock. She sheered sheep and spun wools for a living in Lumbridge. She is a heavy drinker but there is no alcohols in Crandor or Rimmington. Invasion of demons reminiscence her early years of adventures. The only demon invasion was Delrith, in Varrock of course.

Scale theory doesn't apply to politics and populations as well as houses. Regardless how you "scale" it, Crandor is/was simply no comparison to Varrock and Falador, or else it had to be called a Kingdom. Crandor is in no-man's land, hence the reason for the politics, diplomacies and trading of ores.

Even if we found a note, a picture, half an apple eaten by Elvarg or whatever you can think of in Ungael, North Pole, City of Um of whereever you can think of, it still wouldn't make Elvarg related to the new quest as we can easily find over 9,000 such things from other NPC too when it has no adventure in the new quests.

27-Jul-2023 00:17:05 - Last edited on 27-Jul-2023 00:39:00 by Dilbert2001

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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We knew Ellamaria was a barmaid from Garden of Tranquility - but she certainly wasn’t one before her home burned down. She was a mere child back then.

She met Bianca during her time as a barmaid, which again, happened after her home burned down.

The significance of wool-working in Lumbridge is to be evocative that Ellamaria went on similar adventures that the player did. This doesn’t prove that she lived anywhere.

The presence of booze from 40 years ago holds no relevance whatsoever - nor does the lack of ability to find it forty years later hold any bearing. Bottles break. Soil erodes. Liquids flow away.

Ellamaria probably did slay demons - but not Delrith. Delrith was sealed away since the days of Wally, which would predate Ellamaria by over a century. Without the specific demon, this could be demons anywhere. Noteably, there ARE demons underneath Crandor, and the Raptor can appear to kill then on the other side of the secret door underneath the volcano on Karamja. It’s probably not these demons either.

Meaning, you’ve failed to place the little girl Ellamaria in Varrock. Her home only appears in a dream, meaning it could have been anywhere.

Furthermore, it’s possible Ellamaria hasn’t been in Varrock as late as 160 of the Fifth Age, where she is noticeably absent from that years Varrock Census. She’d be in her mid 30’s at that time.

What does all of that mean? At some point, she could eventually relocate to Varrock after her tragic housefire. It also means we have no idea where that house was located.

—

You’re also wrong about scale theory. Duchess Alba would be Duchess of absolutely nothing, as she’s the only known current inhabitant of Lumford. We know that isn’t true though, as Aster and Bianca were raised there and Alba refers to Lumford using a collective “we.”

If it didn’t apply, her town doesn’t exist. Her people don’t exist. Her political clout doesn’t exist.

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27-Jul-2023 01:44:58

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

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Please show us where do you find the age of Ellamaria? There is absolutely no lore about ages.

We have all kinds of lore of Ellamaria's early life information before they were even The Raptor. Ellamaria

IS

a heavy drinker now, not anything about booze from 40 years ago.

If you have played the quest, you should know not only is there no dragon when Ellamaria's house is on fire, her parents actually are trying to go back into the burning house, not running away from invisible dragon. Evidently they can't be chased by a dragon. Besides, they are able to put up graves for the dead parents, it is incredibly obvious no dragon is there.

Lumford is part of the Misthalin Kingdom, population doesn't change a thing. Even if there was only ONE person in Lumford, it is still part of the Misthalin Kingdom. We can't say the same thing about Crandor. There is no government and not even sign of any residential area. It is just a dead place nobody even want to stay there.

Elvarg has absolutely no connection to Fort Forinthry and Misthalin.

27-Jul-2023 03:16:53

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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What I -know- is that we were inside the Raptor's nightmare.

> Why the heck would the Raptor concern themselves with having nightmares about dragons. Those aren't impressive. He's killed several dragons.

> We know that the thing he's afraid of is the death of his parents - Queen Ellamaria's parents. That's what the framing of the house fire intends to show the player. The nightmare is that loss. Not the heat of the fire or its cause. If he were afraid of dragons, maybe that would be visible in the dream. (It's not that this is even relevant anyway, as part of what makes a good cutscene is avoiding information overload. The pan around Ellamaria as she grows into the queen and then puts on the Raptor's armor is the main reveal in Dead and Buried. More details can afford to come later.)

> It's pretty safe to assume that the only thing that the Raptor fears about that scenario is overwhelming enough to focus on that instead of the details. Again - house fires don't just happen without cause.

---

Apparently, Elvarg has made enough of an impression on Overseer Siv to be a point of reference for how she compares the sizes/danger levels of dragons. I'd agree with you that this isn't necessarily significant on its own, but then again, Elvarg didn't need to be name dropped in the quest at all.

As for Misthalin at large, Duke Horacio of Lumbridge, the man whose father was deathly afraid of the beast, comes back again as the primary purveyor of the Anti-Dragon Shield. Oziach, of Edgeville, assigns the player the task of killing Elvarg to award them the right to wear the Rune Platebody. The Champion's Guildmaster, whose guild is located in Varrock, even seemingly has a very detailed explanation of how to reach Crandor on hand in case someone where to need to find Elvarg.

No connection?

---

Do you have Ellamaria's age? If you don't, then you can't disprove anything I'm suggesting. I don't either, and I can afford to admit it.

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27-Jul-2023 04:12:36

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ellamaria didn't know a thing or have any concern of her dream. She didn't even know why Roald told him something about their future and then dropped dead obviously. The dream represented her past, now and the future, not her concerns or not.

When there was a fire in her past and her parents died in their house and she made graves for them, she remembered it and cried. There was no dragon, no fear, no concern. There was only an accident and her parents, living in an ordinary house with an ordinary swing for her outside, were killed in the house. Their house obviously was not on Crandor. No palm trees, no mining rocks, no mobs, no dragon.

Elvarg meant zip, even to the dragonkin who created it. It was history, and of course some people remember history but dead history has no significance to now and the future.

Why do you keep talking about age? Why asked me what do I think Ellamaria's age is when I clearly told you we don't know and it doesn't matter at all. It is incredibly obvious as we don't even know our own age, but it doesn't matter at all as it is all the lore it counts and lore is absolutely independent of our age.

27-Jul-2023 04:40:44 - Last edited on 27-Jul-2023 04:42:04 by Dilbert2001

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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It's a nightmare, Dilbert.

Roald told her he was going to die someday because she's afraid of that prospect.

You see her parents die in the dream because she's afraid of losing them and still suffers from the loss.

You see Bianca tell her she doesn't deserve the crown because not getting positive affirmation from her friend is something she's afraid of.

You see the Raptor tell her she's still pathetic and weak because she's afraid of being pathetic and weak.

Everything that happens in the Raptor's nightmare is something that the Raptor has a long standing fear of - that's what nightmares are. Dreams about the things we hold deep fears and anguish over.

---

The center staging area of that nightmare is intended for cinematic value. I don't think it literally indicates things like Ellamaria's parents being braindead and deciding to collectively run -into- a burning building, or that Ellamaria built her makeshift graves in the same spot her parents died. It's used for cinematic effect. Here's the progress of what we just saw while were doing that boulder puzzle, Girl loses her parents in a fire, grows up, becomes queen of Varrock, and moonlights as a badass masked vigilante.

Now, is it possible that I'm wrong, and Ellamaria truly did build those graves in front of the rubble of her home? Absolutely. It's also possible Jagex doesn't venture deeper into Ellamaria's past and we never find out the cause of this fire. It would be a shame, because I didn't spend 100 plus pages of this thread fighting with you about this because I disliked you.

I actually think Jagex has a great chance to fill in the missing "Batman" information in the next quest, and that it would be fascinating to people.

If there's a link to make between Elvarg and Ellamaria, doing it in Raptor's dream as opposed to, I dunno, a secret lab on Ungael that was owned by a Dragonkin who created Elvarg seems like a waste - and I think Jagex is smart enough to know that.

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27-Jul-2023 04:55:08

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

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Mod Jack, the writer and creator of The Raptor shows you are totally wrong:

"The Raptor is "stoic, strong, powerful, never admits defeat, says little, values power in others, doesn't care for deception, and so on".

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/1541buw/so_jagex_doesnt_like_writing_about_strong_male/

He compared The Raptor to Zuk and Saradomin in that manner, so perhaps we should expect more The Raptor adventures of significance importance to the major storylines.

All those nightmares were from the past, her tears came from the past, but when they became The Raptor, they are stoic, strong, powerful, never admits defeat, don't care for deception, and so on.

I don't know what secret lab in the 4th Age has anything to do with the dead Elvarg past the 6th Age, especially that "secret lab" if even become meaningful in RS3, we most likely will see in game adventures with them like how RS3 put Zuk in interaction with a lot of content although the OSRS Zuk is nothing more than just a named bosses in a minigame with almost non-existent lore and adventures.

OSRS has very few stories so they tried very hard to link Elvarg and Vorkath together and call Dragon Slayer a Dragonkin quest although clearly Dragonkin didn't has any impact. RS3 doesn't need to and doesn't want to do that because we have a lot of stories revolving around real impacts of Dragonkin on all kinds of Gielinorean lore.

27-Jul-2023 05:09:03 - Last edited on 27-Jul-2023 05:17:18 by Dilbert2001

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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All of those qualities Jack talks about can be true, and they can still have nightmares. I don't know what the point of sharing that quote was. I didn't dispute that.

I don't think those old nightmares are over and death with though. At least, not without the player's help.

> For starters, during each part of the boulder puzzle, The Raptor actually talks to the visions in the dream, somewhat uncomposed, as if his words would prevent the dream from happening. It's very clear those events still hurt him.

> Then there's the significance of her loved ones and her alter ego showing up when interacting with the lights and saying things that would hurt her after we know the Raptor is Ellamaria. In fact, it's a very interesting character moment that the Raptor has a dream appearance himself, where he tells Ellamaria, who is the one who dons his armor and uses his name, that she's pathetic and weak. Remember, the player finds out Ellamaria and the Raptor are one and the same. So much for this "never failing to be strong and unflappable" nonsense. Nightmare Raptor shows up himself specifically to get under her skin.

> Finally, there's a unique story-gameplay moment where the player has to switch to themselves to deal the initial damage on Ellamaria's nightmares, before switching to Ellamaria so that she can finish those nightmares on her own.

---

I'm not suggesting that Elvarg is coming back to life. I'm suggesting there's more to the Crandor attack than meets the eye, and that its possibly documented in that Ungael laboratory and it could be used to further flesh out EllaRaptor as a character. Bruce Wayne became the Batman because criminals killed his parents. It just makes good sense for Queen Ellamaria to become the Raptor because a monster killed hers.

On top of that, think of the appeal to lapsed players. Elvarg is celebrated by the community as a classic RuneScape boss. People E A T U P legacy stories.

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27-Jul-2023 05:30:10 - Last edited on 27-Jul-2023 05:32:06 by H 1 L D A

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Aftermath: Dead and Buried