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In Defense of Saradomin

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Astraea L

Astraea L

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CD_Paladin_C said :
What I always like to point out is the Goebies. That race is near useless, barely able to exist without falling over or crushing themselves. But for some reason the Airut and Tuska enslaved them. If they enslaved a useless race like that, wouldn't you think it'd be better than to enslave something more useful like the Naragi?
1. So you're saying a "weaker" race couldn't have survived where a "stronger" one was destroyed under similar circumstances? By that logic, goblins are stronger than ourgs because they were both used as troops by Bandos, but goblins are still numerous while ourgs are nearly extinct.

2. The airut are specifically mentioned as having slaughtered the naragi with no attempt made to enslave them.

3. It's quite an assumption to say that the goebies are "near useless," even if my dearest does call them the worst race in lore. There is evidence that they once had an advanced civilization, and it's difficult to say whether they or the naragi would have been more useful for the airuts' purposes.

4. Enslaving a race incapable of doing much to fight back has its advantages. CD_Paladin_C said :
That's where this falls apart. We have evidence of Tuska enslaving races. Also there's evidence that Skargaroth had no followers and was lone gunning it. Kinda hard to genocide effectively by yourself. Then we have the laundry list of all the genocides Saradomin committed.
1. The airut enslaved the goebies, not Tuska. Tuska isn't intelligent enough to enslave anything.

2. Except that Skargaroth didn't "genocide" the naragi by himself; Tuska and other gods were also present. Besides, a lone god can still do quite a bit of damage.

3. Saradomin has not committed any genocides to our knowledge. The closest he came was destroying the "devils" on New Domina, who were described as Always Chaotic Evil, and the Zarosian "genocide" which was a cultural genocide rather than a literal one.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 00:02:40 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:32:39 by Astraea L

Astraea L

Astraea L

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CD_Paladin_C said :
Saradomin killed the overwhelming majority of the naragi; men, women, children (:^)), and elderly. By the time Saradomin left there were too few to even worry about which is why they had gotten wiped out by the end.
[citation needed]
CD_Paladin_C said :
But anyways I'm hungry going to go grab so Ravioli. But anyways, always remember, "ravioli ravioli, Saradomin's dead next world eventioli."
But if Saradomin dies, who will you be tsundere for obsessively hate then?
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 00:08:38

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Darc Oejder said :
If Saradomin wanted to make amends for destroying Askroth then why did he leave the naragi to be killed by Tuska and Skargaroth? If he couldn't defeat them he could have opened a portal for the naragi to escape to another world like Armadyl offered to the feline race.
We cannot assume that Saradomin was capable of doing so. Keep in mind that the Naragun god wars were implied to take place not long after Saradomin's ascension, so it's possible he was weaker then than Armadyl is now (notably, this was before Saradomin absorbed the power of the Stone of Jas.) It's also possible that Saradomin was unable to open a portal long enough for enough naragi to escape for the race to survive without leaving himself vulnerable to Tuska, or that he didn't want to risk leading Tuska and the airut to his worlds.

We know that some of the naragi worshipped Saradomin, and I think Saradomin definitely would have saved the Saradominist naragi if he could have, even assuming he didn't care about the others. Darc Oejder said :
Saradomin barely knew Sir Owen. To claim he wanted to save him as if they were best friends is not true since Saradomin distances himself from his subjects. He cares for them as servants and subjects not as friends or comrades. He doesn't even see himself as a human.
While your claim is technically true, I didn't mean to imply that they were literally best friends. Rather, my point was that Sir Owen was important to Saradomin and he was determined to save him, even if he had to go through the World Guardian to do so.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 00:28:46 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:33:13 by Astraea L

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Darc Oejder said :
The incident with Garlandia is barbaric and cruel. She spoke up against his point of view and he made an example of her for his supposed greater good but the lesson here is Saraomin will not tolerate anyone speaking up against his decisions.
It is evident to me, based on the points I've already brought up, that Saradomin ripped off Garlandia's wings because he thought the icyene would be destroyed if he did not act, not just because she disagreed with him. Saradomin actually had quite a bit of respect for Garlandia's point of view and wished he could have agreed with her. It was definitely a questionable action, and you're welcome to call it barbaric and cruel if you feel it was unjustified, but I ask that you do so for the right reasons. Darc Oejder said :
You say he isn't arrogant yet if you talk with him about the other gods and important people he will have low regard of all of them. He sees himself better than all of them that is the definition of arrogance.
Not true. The definition of arrogance is to think you're better or more important than you actually are. Is it arrogant for a pro football player to think they're better at football than me? Saradomin could accurately be called egotistical, but I make no attempt to deny that.

It's also untrue that Saradomin holds all the other gods and important figures in low regard. He speaks positively of Armadyl, Icthlarin, and Death. Sure, he thinks his philosophy is better than everyone else's, but doesn't everyone? If his philosophy wasn't the best in his eyes, he wouldn't be advocating it.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 00:53:06 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:33:37 by Astraea L

Mewzard
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Mewzard

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Hazeel said :
Maybe he tried to recruit them...but I doubt it worked, since the Naragi were already "working with" Tuska to drive out a common enemy: Saradomin.

And like I said in the other thread, if he had any Naragi join them, he would have surely brought them with him when he left...unless we are to believe he ditched them.


Some Naragi were "working with" Tuska, not all of them.

Either way, do you honestly think that lasted long into Tuska attacking their planet indiscriminately and after how many of their people were run over? They probably decided to work with Saradomin over Tuska when they realized Saradomin can at least be reasoned with, whereas Tuska is mindless death and destruction.

They could have all died in battle, who knows? Maybe some Naragi went with Saradomin, but their numbers were too low to sustain so the Naragi died off anyways, despite survivors (that'd make Guthix extra sad). It's hard to say, we're still lacking details. I hope we can ask Saradomin more in DoCII.

28-Jan-2017 00:59:48

Astraea L

Astraea L

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TryflBane said :
About the wing ripping... I remember when you (sky jexel) said garlandia deserved it because she abandoned the people in their time of need.
I'm pretty sure I never said that. I don't think Garlandia deserved the wing ripping, I just think the ends justified the means. TryflBane said :
I find it hard to imagine that saradomins only choice to save the icyene was by ripping her wings off. It was quick and effective but surely saradomin could have made a compelling case convince garlandia that the peaceful approach would not work on the enemies. The world guardian would certainly have explored all his/her options. Justification is such a easy thing to do, my biggest problem with saradomin is that he has a single minded way of approaching things.
You do bring up a good point, but if getting people to change their beliefs was that easy, I wouldn't have had to make this thread. It's also worth noting that he had to convince the rest of the icyene, not just Garlandia. Even if he had managed to convince Garlandia he was right, her words may have already planted seeds of doubt in the minds of several other icyene and convinced them to abandon the fight. That was the real problem, not Garlandia refusing to fight, as one icyene alone likely would not have made a difference.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 01:04:55 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:05:12 by Astraea L

Aeldari

Aeldari

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I am still seeing a lot of blame placed on Saradomin and Tuska. I'm not sure why when we know that there were many more gods present in this war. Guthix stated that many gods died in the Naragi god wars and it lasted for centuries. The Naragi race were wiped out due to this fact, not because Saradomin waged war on them alone and also not soley because of Tuska.
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28-Jan-2017 01:06:35

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Hazeel said :
While I'm sure Tuska did kill some Naragi, I doubt she killed anywhere near Saradomin did. Tuska's not interested in the Naragi, she's interested in their planet. In contrast, I doubt Saradomin wanted to destroy Naragun itself--then he'd have nothing to rule over. Saradomin was interested in its people.

If Tuska targetted anyone, it would be the Saradominists, because Saradomin was the one actively fighting her and he was the one with all the settlements and treasures for the Airut to horde.
Destroying a planet does tend to kill off its people though. Even if she didn't kill the naragi directly, they wouldn't have survived for long on a dead planet, as they'd have no way to obtain food or other necessities.

Besides, even if Tuska herself didn't care about the naragi, the airut certainly did, and they were said to have slaughtered the naragi on sight.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 01:11:22

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Hazeel said :
One method that comes to mind is the crown itself. He had the Elder Sword and the airut hold another artifact. He knows they follow Saradomin, so if he finds Saradomin he finds Tuska.
I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking why Skargaroth would be drawn to Saradomin. Hguoh had claimed that Skargaroth could have been controlling where Tuska went, and I was asking how he would be capable of doing that. Hazeel said :
But he did destroy the sword. Which one do you think the crown is closer to?
You do have a point there, but the Sword and the Crown are still not the same and we don't know whether or not Saradomin would have been able to destroy the Crown. Even if he could have, I don't think that would put a stop to the damage done by warmongering gods; they'd still be out there, they just wouldn't have an easy way of knowing where Saradomin or the Crown were. At best, destroying the Crown would merely slow down the inevitable search for more elder artefacts.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

28-Jan-2017 01:25:36 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:56:11 by Astraea L

Darc Oejder

Darc Oejder

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Sky Jexel, Saradomin had to be at least tier 5 god when he was on Guthix's home world are you saying he could not open a portal in a refugee camp for 30 minutes to let them escape? We know that Icthlarin who is only a demigod opened a portal from Freneskae to Gilienor at the opposite end of the universe and 500 hundred mahjarrat arrived almost immediatly. Saradomin should have had time to save thousands if not tens of thousands of Naragi if he so chosen to do or are you saying he spent every waking hour fighting Tuska and Skargaroth and had no breaks for centuries?

What do you mean I should call Garlandia's wing ripping barbaric and cruel only for the right reasons? Speaking sense into her and convincing her would make all those who doubted him because of her to change back immediatly. This action in particular is not excusable in my opinion and I find it hard to understand why you and the other Saradominist defend this abuse.

Saradomin said that Armadyl refuses to acknowledge that he was wrong in making his avianse fight in the godwars when Armadyl is fully aware that he was at fault which is why he only brought a couple of followers with him to the Heart. He is wrong about Armadyl and sees him at most as a vassal I don't think that means he is very positive toward him like you claim. He got into an argument with Icthlarin by questioning his presense in the Endgame he wants him to be nothing but a guide for souls. He encouraged a fight between Zamorak and Armadyl like a child would do without seeing the real threat that is Sliske.
There is joy in combat that can't be found anywhere else.

28-Jan-2017 02:11:41

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