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In Defense of Saradomin

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Hazeel

Hazeel

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While I'm sure Tuska did kill some Naragi, I doubt she killed anywhere near Saradomin did. Tuska's not interested in the Naragi, she's interested in their planet. In contrast, I doubt Saradomin wanted to destroy Naragun itself--then he'd have nothing to rule over. Saradomin was interested in its people.

If Tuska targetted anyone, it would be the Saradominists, because Saradomin was the one actively fighting her and he was the one with all the settlements and treasures for the Airut to horde. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 20:32:26

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Hazeel said :
While I'm sure Tuska did kill some Naragi, I doubt she killed anywhere near Saradomin did. Tuska's not interested in the Naragi, she's interested in their planet. In contrast, I doubt Saradomin wanted to destroy Naragun itself--then he'd have nothing to rule over. Saradomin was interested in its people.

If Tuska targetted anyone, it would be the Saradominists, because Saradomin was the one actively fighting her and he was the one with all the settlements and treasures for the Airut to horde.

Actually, given this comment from Guthix:

"Guthix: I was reminded of something Saradomin once told me...that he has never desired war, but we must fight to preserve peace. If we do not stand before the swarm, it will consume us. 'Some must die so all can live. Sacrifices must be made for the greater good.' Now those I swore to protect die in my name. They suffer for my mistake. It is a painful lesson, the kind of knowledge that forever changes one's ideals. I am finally beginning to understand the necessity of what happened on Naragun."

I'm pretty sure Saradomin tried to unite his forces with the Naragi forces to defeat Tuska. The hope being that a few sacrifices will be worth it if this threat to the world was driven off. Saradomin's words perhaps inspire many Naragi to join his forces, but Tuska and her forces prove too much, and many die in battles, as other no doubt die from Tuska's rampaging across the planet and collateral damage (ala Aagi during Skargaroth's battle with Tuska).

I'm pretty sure Saradomin didn't need those words for his own loyal subjects, but to convince the Naragi to fight their mutual enemy.

27-Jan-2017 21:51:29

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Maybe he tried to recruit them...but I doubt it worked, since the Naragi were already "working with" Tuska to drive out a common enemy: Saradomin.

And like I said in the other thread, if he had any Naragi join them, he would have surely brought them with him when he left...unless we are to believe he ditched them. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 22:40:41

Astraea L

Astraea L

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I must say, I'm pleasantly surprised by the responses I've gotten so far. I was worried I would get a negative response and everyone would start flinging shit at me without even reading or considering my arguments, but almost everyone on both sides of the debate has been engaging in reasonable discussion and posting in good faith.

I would like to take a moment to offer rebuttals to many of the points that have been brought up to counter mine. Hguoh said :
Where to begin? Your entire argument revolves around the idea that wearing the crown leaves it constantly 'on' such that the wearer is constantly made aware of the locations of other artifacts and the bearers of those artifacts are made aware of the wearer of the crown. As we don't know how the crown works, you cannot rule out the possibility that Saradomin attracted Tuska and/or Skargaroth by pointing out that Teragard and New Domina weren't destroyed Admittedly, this is something that didn't occur to me, but we do know for sure that Saradomin actively used the crown on Teragard, so my point still stands. Hguoh said :
Furthermore, we do know that Skargaroth did have the Elder Blade and was described as a hunting god (who had been hunting Tuska). Even if we assume that Tuska or her Airut didn't have an artifact at the time (we'll have to see where the last artifacts are before we make that judgement), you can't deny the possibility that Skargaroth could have been directing Tuska towards the location of the crown (which would also explain why Tuska, even if she or her handlers had an artifact wouldn't have continued to pursue Saradomin). This seems like quite a stretch to me. How could Skargaroth reliably direct Tuska throughout the universe, and why would he want to?
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

27-Jan-2017 22:52:24 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:37:47 by Astraea L

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Astraea L said :
How could Skargaroth reliably direct Tuska throughout the universe, and why would he want to?

1) He's a hunter. Tuska is his prize.

2) One method that comes to mind is the crown itself. He had the Elder Sword and the airut hold another artifact. He knows they follow Saradomin, so if he finds Saradomin he finds Tuska. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 23:15:52

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Hguoh said :
No, he is not responsible for their actions, unless, of course, he deliberately attracted them to the world. As for your scenarios:

1. Skargaroth was hunting Tuska. There is no reason to believe he'd work with Tuska against Saradomin instead of allying with Saradomin to overwhelm his prey, Tuska.

2. We've seen that even the Stone of Jas can be destroyed. Destroying the crown keeps it out of anybody else's hands ever.

3. Tuska maybe, but, again , Skargaroth was a hunter trying to kill Tuska. Maybe he'd fail to kill her on whatever other plane they ended up on, maybe the plane would be destroyed in the process, or maybe the plane wouldn't really be affected. You have no way of knowing whether or not they'd have destroyed another plane if they hadn't visited Naragun.

Look, I don't hate Saradomin, but I don't accept spreading misinformation to combat misinformation. 1. I didn't mean that they'd be working together necessarily, but rather that both of them were destructive. As for working with Saradomin, Skargaroth has been described as a solitary hunter, and Saradomin claims "...the beast and the hunter brought violence of their own," which would suggest the three were all on different sides.

2. Even Guthix was unable to destroy the Stone. It was only able to be destroyed in Endgame with the use of another elder artefact in a very specific location. It would not have worked under any other circumstances. Besides, destroying the crown would not put an end to the conflicts over elder artefacts, merely delay them if it accomplished anything at all. By wearing the crown, Saradomin at least ensured he would have the advantage in the inevitable conflict.

3. Tuska would definitely have destroyed or at least severely scarred whatever world she came to. Skargaroth may or may not have been responsible as well, but either way, there's no reason to believe another world wouldn't have suffered the same fate as Naragun.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

27-Jan-2017 23:16:33 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:28:43 by Astraea L

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Giras said :
Yes, he's got experience in keeping societies intact...but we've seen the examples of his societies. Take Asgarnia: the White Knights take any excuse they can to get rid of any dissenting views either personally or by allowing their destruction (leaving Burthorpe and Taverly without aid). They're also denying the crown prince his throne and have the king stashed away somewhere if he's not already dead. His church even has branches that prohibit things like dancing, the end result will inevitably be a stagnant society where individuality is frowned upon. I don't think the Imperial Guard would take too kindly to the White Knights coming into Burthorpe. However, they do not leave Burthorpe without aid, as Commander Denulth claims the Imperial Guard is funded by the White Knights. True, he also claims the White Knights have been looking for an excuse to cut off their funding, but it is said that should that happen, the White Knights would protect Burthorpe from the trolls, and their motive for doing so is due to a scarcity of funds rather than simply to spite the Imperial Guard. Also, I don't think it's quite fair to say the White Knights want to get rid of any dissenting views, as they allow Guthixian dwarves to practice their trade in Falador and have a Guthixian gnome ambassador in their castle.

As for the Citharede Abbey's prohibition on dancing, that only applies to the nuns who have voluntarily taken a vow not to dance; ordinary people can dance as much as they want.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

27-Jan-2017 23:32:29 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:28:59 by Astraea L

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Giras said :
We've also seen how "neutral" nations such as Misthalin have their negotiations stalled and nearly ruined by hardline Saradominist priests such as Aeonisig. I know you're going to say that Aeonisig isn't Saradomin...but we know that Saradomin just leaves people like Aeonisig in charge after he leaves and Saradomin himself has always been a "big picture" guy. Actually, Saradomin doesn't leave people like Aeonisig in charge. The Myreque series takes place in the Fifth Age, and Saradomin had not been able to influence Gielinor directly at that point for over 2000 years. There is, however, someone in the Myreque series who actually was left in charge by Saradomin: Efaritay, the one trying to reason and negotiate with everybody. Of course, Saradomin probably wouldn't be able to weed out all the extremists in his church, but that's simply a flaw of mortals and I don't see why it would be any worse under Saradomin than under any other god (or no god, for that matter.) Giras said :
We also know that his civilizations don't last without him as stated in Saradomin's lore podcast that because of the rigid structure Saradomin left on Terragard the humans aren't in charge anymore and "something else" took over, presumably taking advantage of the system. Can you provide a quote to prove this? I'm pretty sure this was never said.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

27-Jan-2017 23:41:17 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 01:29:26 by Astraea L

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Astraea L said :
2. Even Guthix was unable to destroy the Stone.

But he did destroy the sword. Which one do you think the crown is closer to? Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 23:42:04

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