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In Defense of Saradomin

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Astraea L

Astraea L

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Mazakon said :
This quote is intriguing. Saradomin talks about his control, and others have as well, but the examples he gives here aren't what most think of when they think of total control. At best, these examples are things that people believe are necessary restrictions for civilization. So I do find it a bit odd that Saradomin would see control in a general sense as a good thing when his idea of it stems from a minute version. Even what he says about knowing where they belong and how to behave, in their most common form, is just a reflection or form of culture. Based on this, I would argue that Saradomin's philosophy may not be as extreme as a lot of people believe it to be. He's not controlling in the sense that he has any interest in micromanaging people's lives, but that he wants to shape the progression and structure of society to avoid the failures of past civilizations. It is "control" in the sense that it has a single supreme authority, and Saradomin may take a more forceful approach in times of dire need as he did with Garlandia, but Saradominists such as Padomenes do seem to enjoy a reasonable amount of personal freedom. Some such as Veliaf and Sir Owen even claim to be fighting for freedom.

As for what you said about Saradominism being a form of culture, I think you're definitely right. I believe that religion, both real and in the context of RS, is an important element of culture. This is one of the reasons that Guthix was never able to -truly- remove the gods from Gielinor; he could not remove the cultures they had created.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

17-Apr-2017 18:39:12

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Astraea L said :
This is one of the reasons that Guthix was never able to -truly- remove the gods from Gielinor; he could not remove the cultures they had created. Another related reason being that Guthix offered no concrete alternative. By Guthix's own ethical standards he couldn't, but all that did was leave people wondering "but what do we do?" after Guthix's "you're free now." So the people of Gielinor instead stuck to the philosophies they'd been taught by the other gods, more or less, or invented a philosophy loosely based on (yet twisted from) Guthix's own.

The second option was sort of getting at what he wanted (if someone begins to modify teachings to suit their own personal understanding, isn't that no longer mindless obedience?), but it never got there because Guthix never made a concerted effort himself or through his closest followers to encourage the kind of critical thinking needed (the only one to try fell back too quickly on eugenics and worse when reason was slow going).

Of course, maybe it would have been futile to try, or even if it succeeded some people would choose to obey others gods, believe in other philosophies, of their own free will. But by not trying Guthix lost the chance that it could succeed by default.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that Saradomin's fierce conviction to actively work towards his goals using his full power isn't necessarily a bad thing. You cannot change the world without effort, and when you stop exerting that effort there are consequences for your inaction. Saradomin may even, in fact, be driven in part by the fear of what would happen should he take a step back. He MUST be the one to lead the charge; anything less and Saradomin could be faced with an undesirable outcome he will forever feel he could have prevented.

18-Apr-2017 01:52:33

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Rifleavenger said :
I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that Saradomin's fierce conviction to actively work towards his goals using his full power isn't necessarily a bad thing. You cannot change the world without effort, and when you stop exerting that effort there are consequences for your inaction. Saradomin may even, in fact, be driven in part by the fear of what would happen should he take a step back. He MUST be the one to lead the charge; anything less and Saradomin could be faced with an undesirable outcome he will forever feel he could have prevented. That's definitely at least a part of what motivates him, based on a lot of the things he says during Endgame.

"I would have loved little more than for conflict to end and peace to flourish. But I knew better. I knew inaction would lead to the destruction of my people."

"I hear your words, but I will not turn back. I am no fool, Seren. I never was. I am proud, I will grant you that. I may have taken actions that even I found distasteful in the name of a greater good. But what is my alternative? To hide in Falador and isolate myself, as you did?"

"It has been a... difficult day. To have the stone once again and to lose it so quickly... The world I could have created with such power... I could have saved everyone."


He even describes Seren as being "in many ways as deplorable as Zamorak" because she has the power to prevent so much suffering in the world, but refuses to do so. He believes that he is the "one true god" because he considers himself to be the only god who is both able and willing to guide everyone to a better future.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

21-Apr-2017 03:24:10

Mayahai

Mayahai

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But isn't Armadyl also willing and able to guide everyone to a better future?
Remove TH, and put stuff from TH to Solomon's store as guarantees. No disappointment to the average player who only uses free keys which yield trash, and those who do buy into MTX can have a clear idea what the thing they want is going to cost them.

21-Apr-2017 10:39:47

Mazakon

Mazakon

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Mayahai said :
But isn't Armadyl also willing and able to guide everyone to a better future?


Saradomin appears to understand that Armadyl is willing to be a guide for people, but also believes that Armadyl is incapable of doing this to the extent that he is because of how their philosophies diverge.
The pirates of the Granblue set sail!

21-Apr-2017 13:28:51

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Mayahai said :
But isn't Armadyl also willing and able to guide everyone to a better future?
While Saradomin has some degree of respect for Armadyl, he also considers him too naive and weak-willed to be a truly effective leader.

"Armadyl has no idea what to do with [the Stone's] power, and would destroy himself with his naivety."


That said, Saradomin has mentioned that he would be willing to accept vassalage of Armadyl and the aviansie, and believes that they would benefit from his tutelage. I doubt Armadyl would like the idea of being subservient to Saradomin again, but I think it might be interesting to speculate on what Armadyl's role under Saradomin would be were he to accept this.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

21-Apr-2017 21:56:41

Aeldari

Aeldari

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Mayahai said :
But isn't Armadyl also willing and able to guide everyone to a better future?
He is capable and no doubt tries his best, but as others have said he is a bit naive and that is often his failing. Hopefully he and Seren will team up, that would in my opinion be a very effective duo.
~Lore Hound~
/~Enticed Clan~

22-Apr-2017 07:43:23

Astraea L

Astraea L

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Quael said :
Even if Saradomin did it for the greater good, and yes he is still human despite being a god, I still hate him for doing what he did. A god doesn't have the luxury of thinking like that. If you're not willing to do anything unethical for the greater good, your people will suffer far more harm than if you had intervened. Personally, I think letting people die because you can't bring yourself to do what needs to be done is almost as bad as killing them yourself. The end result is the same: you knowingly cause the death of others through your own actions. Saradomin is committed to helping as many people as he can as much as he can, because he feels that as a god, it is his responsibility, and to turn away from it would be a cowardly betrayal of his people.

Sure, it may be distasteful, and in an ideal world, we wouldn't have that sort of thing, but that's exactly what Saradomin is trying to create: a world where unethical actions will no longer be necessary.

It's also worth noting that even Guthix resorted to the "greater good" justification at times. By insisting that Gielinor be free from the influence of gods, he deprived the mortals of Gielinor of the option of worshiping gods, thus imposing his own beliefs on them. He was also known to mess with the bodies and minds of mortals without their consent for what he thought was a "good" purpose, such as when he created Cres and when he erased Argento's memory.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

30-Apr-2017 19:59:31

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