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In Defense of Saradomin

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Maiden China

Maiden China

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Rifleavenger said :
Maiden China said :
Lego Miester said :
Did they? They certainly didn't succeed with me. Watching him get shot down with one word was immensely satisfying. "No." did Jas say that? I can see where Kerapac gets it :P Yep, followed up by "No matter how brightly a flame burns, it can never become a star." Zaros didn't take it very well. as cool as that sentence is, just 'no.' would have been cooler Carn

14-Apr-2017 08:42:42

Zulkir

Zulkir

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Maiden China said :
Rifleavenger said :
Maiden China said :
Lego Miester said :
Did they? They certainly didn't succeed with me. Watching him get shot down with one word was immensely satisfying. "No." did Jas say that? I can see where Kerapac gets it :P Yep, followed up by "No matter how brightly a flame burns, it can never become a star." Zaros didn't take it very well. as cool as that sentence is, just 'no.' would have been cooler

Would it? Jas and Zaros having a conversation, two of the most intelligent, articulate and verbally expressive beings to ever exist and you want their conversations to be one worded?

That would be a waste.
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14-Apr-2017 13:01:58

Thatds

Thatds

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Ancient Drew said :
Jas is also probably the most reasonable of the Elders. Let's face it, Wen is a paranoid and fearful type who corrupted Mah in order to try and suppress life. Bik is the angry teenager, and Ful is like an angry Seren.

Could you go into some deeper detail on that? The only impression I've gotten from the Elder Gods is that they don't care about sentience and Jas is the only one who would consider giving mortals a chance.
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14-Apr-2017 17:19:07

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Thatds said :
Ancient Drew said :
Jas is also probably the most reasonable of the Elders. Let's face it, Wen is a paranoid and fearful type who corrupted Mah in order to try and suppress life. Bik is the angry teenager, and Ful is like an angry Seren.

Could you go into some deeper detail on that? The only impression I've gotten from the Elder Gods is that they don't care about sentience and Jas is the only one who would consider giving mortals a chance. The fact that Jas considered giving mortals a chance shows her reasonability (somehow this word is highlighted in red as misspelled), and also I imagine any of the other Elders would have killed Zaros before he could even open his mouth. BikKra and FulKra in Heart of Stone were aggressive when we showed up and sent their attendants to attack us on sight, which suggests that these two are more aggressive than Jas whose mouthpiece just refused to talk, or WenKra who challenged us to a puzzle.

Then we look at the Elder chronicles on Freneskae and the text they reveal when offered to the altar in Guthix's chamber.

"From matter is born shape, ever growing and changing. The youth increases in knowledge and power. Thus came Edda-Bik."


Mah is considered the child, so we could assume Bik to represent a puberty of sorts. BikKra describes Bik as the greatest of the Elders (a teenager could naturally assume themselves to be the best and always right).

"From the cold is born fear, shrinking and death. The corpse lies still and lifeless.
Thus came Edda-Wen."


The chronicle also describes reflecting on the past, something that could explain why Wen corrupted Mah (which is shown in Children of Mah when Seren sends us into her nightmares), and her Kra challenged us to a puzzle instead of attacking us or just refusing to talk.

continued... Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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14-Apr-2017 17:36:53

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Wen might or might not have corrupted Mah on Jas' orders, but she might have done it to save the other Elders from starving. Apparently, there were more Elder Gods around but they began to starve on anima and die. The anima on Freneskae couldn't nourish all 5 of the Elders left, and there was a sixth one according to Zaros in Seren's memory in The Light Within, which rather than having a form is "something else". It has been speculated, however, that the Stone of Jas is a hardboiled Elder God egg and the Sixth has been mangled and put inside. There may have been an event which killed off hundreds of the Elders in the past, something which scared Wen to the point where she became paranoid and fearful.

"From the heat is born passion, growth and life. The maiden feels love and joy. Thus came Edda-Ful."


Passion, growth, life, love, joy, maiden. These words sound something like Seren to me. The differences between Ful and Seren seem to be that Ful focuses on the present, which is shown again by her chronicle, while Seren always seems worried about the past. Then again in the case of Seren this is understandable due to her conscience being shattered as well as her body, causing her to effectively trap herself in a messed up time warp.

"From life is born experience, wisdom and intelligence. The matron is nurturing and caring. Thus came Edda-Jas."


Jas is not only the strongest Elder, but also the smartest. She has made plans to preserve the rest of her family assuming that a mass death of Elders has happened in the past, and is beginning to see something in us and mortals in general. It's also possible that she sees something in Zaros and Seren, otherwise she could have just killed them and us. She wants to see what happens after the Endgame. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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14-Apr-2017 17:54:08

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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I don't think the chronicles are accurate representations of the Elders' personality (if they can even be said to have personality). They're meant to be poetic, not historical. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

14-Apr-2017 19:39:35 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2017 19:42:30 by Raleirosen

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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The funny thing is, even poems and legends can be clues. We had clues going towards the personalities and relationship of Zaros and Seren for a little while before CoM and the Endgame which came with the memoriam devices on Freneskae and Prifddinas. And the Guardians of Armadyl had said before in the Temple of Ikov quest that the Saradominists were arrogant for claiming that there are only 3 gods. For each new quest and piece of lore out, even in poems and stories, there will always be clues pointing towards something else. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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14-Apr-2017 19:56:32

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Ancient Drew said :
The funny thing is, even poems and legends can be clues. We had clues going towards the personalities and relationship of Zaros and Seren for a little while before CoM and the Endgame which came with the memoriam devices on Freneskae and Prifddinas. And the Guardians of Armadyl had said before in the Temple of Ikov quest that the Saradominists were arrogant for claiming that there are only 3 gods. For each new quest and piece of lore out, even in poems and stories, there will always be clues pointing towards something else. That would be a point well made, except I can't see anything "caring" or "nurturing" or motherly in general in Jas' dialogue, other than her decision to let us live, which can be interpreted any number of ways.

In any case the threat the Elders pose has already been neutered just by virtue of us speaking with Jas. It would be asinine of Jagex to personify them any more than they already have. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

14-Apr-2017 20:12:44

Mazakon

Mazakon

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Astraea L said :
Saradomin is a liar!

He makes no attempt to hide the fact that he seeks power and control, arguing that under his control, people would be better off.

“You say [control] as though it were a bad thing. People need to be led. They need governments. They need leaders. They need structures. Freedom doesn't mean anarchy. Just as control doesn't have to mean slavery. I offer guidance and leadership. Law and order. Under my 'control', people could thrive. Everyone would have the reassurance that they know where they belong and how they should behave. This people crave. Deep down everyone wants to know where they sit in the world. What you call control, I would argue is true freedom. Freedom to know how life should be lived and how to fulfill one’s potential.”
-Saradomin


This quote is intriguing. Saradomin talks about his control, and others have as well, but the examples he gives here aren't what most think of when they think of total control. At best, these examples are things that people believe are necessary restrictions for civilization. So I do find it a bit odd that Saradomin would see control in a general sense as a good thing when his idea of it stems from a minute version. Even what he says about knowing where they belong and how to behave, in their most common form, is just a reflection or form of culture.
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16-Apr-2017 23:00:27

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