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In Defense of Saradomin

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Zulkir

Zulkir

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BarryManilow said :
Where are the flaws on Zaros, Guthix, or Seren?

Staring you in the face oh so clearly.

You're not complaining due to lack of flaws, you're complaining that the flaws they have aren't good enough for YOU because you either like the characters too much in spite of them and you can't handle that, or you're another Padomenes, thinking you're oppressed and that other characters "Deserve" negative lore.

Cry me a River Salve.
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12-Apr-2017 16:07:22 - Last edited on 12-Apr-2017 16:11:23 by Zulkir

BarryManilow
Sep Member 2016

BarryManilow

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continued from last post

They could have incorporated Zaro's storyline against Mah as a redemption arc for Zamorak. You find out the whole time that Zamorak knew the whole time about Elder Gods and dead worlds because of Mah on Frenskae. It would bring a good deal of his villainous actions and elaborate on the reason why he believes so firmly in Chaos and the rebellion against your fate. It would have been so much more tragic if he came so close to be able to help Gielinor in his own way, but lost to Saradomin in the first world event, vastly setting him back.

Instead, Zaros was given the brooding anti-hero treatment despite being depicted as near-omnipotent before his big reveal. A better treatment for his character would be him trying to get his old empire back (and believing that it would lead to another golden age like his reign in the second age), but is a bit oblivious that doing so will lead to the loss of thousands of lives and widescale destruction.

Guthix, as powerful as he has been depicted, was somehow portrayed as a victim to numerous other gods. Why can't he just be a divine embodiment of Gielinor, deriving his power from the planet's anima similar to an elder god. He can be depicted as a being that utilizes the anima of the planet to protect the inhabitants within, but having knowledge about Elder Gods, knowing that utilizing this power rampantly would eventually attract their attention. His internal conflict would be the balance between choosing protecting his realm at the cost of attracting beings that he's largely powerless against. People can then criticize Guthix for being a apathic god that seemingly blind to the lesser plight of his followers. Making a being as powerful as him and putting him in a lose-lose situation that he's powerless against would be the character's central conflict. You give a character like Guthix higher goals to differentiate him from the pettiness of lesser gods instead of granting Guthix emotional trauma.
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12-Apr-2017 16:10:54

BarryManilow
Sep Member 2016

BarryManilow

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Zulkir said :
BarryManilow said :
Where are the flaws on Zaros, Guthix, or Seren?

Staring you in the face oh so clearly.

You're not complaining due to lack of flaws, you're complaining that the flaws they have aren't good enough for YOU because you either like the characters too much in spite of them and you can't handle that, or you're another Padomenes, thinking you're oppressed and that other characters "Deserve" negative lore.

Cry me a River Salve.
Please, revert to personal insults when I'm bringing up criticism about characters.

For a role playing game, Runescape seems really intent on pushing you towards a certain narrative. First, they convinced you that Guthix is actually a super sympathetic being by making him a victim. Then they tried to convince you that Zaros will save us all.

If it were not for those characters' pandering "please like me/feel bad for me" backstory to justify how they take up entire questlines, I doubt I would care. Players shouldn't be spoonfed obvious content as to who are the good or bad guys. Players should align themselves with the various gods since they're reflections of they're own personal beliefs. I feel that the freedom of choice is a core component of the roleplaying genre. Players should want to choose between the order of Saradomin, the Chaos of Zamorak, the carnage of Bandos, or the sheer ridiculousness of Brassica Prime. If you like Zaros, that's fine. If you want Seren to be restored, good on you. IF you feel that gods don't have a place on Gielinor, awesome.
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12-Apr-2017 16:26:25

Ancient Drew

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BarryManilow said :
I really wish the developers would try to make each one of the gods flawed in their own way, but truly believe what they preach. Saradomin believes that order is the best way to avoid conflict. Zamorak believes in Chaos to rebel against his fate is dictated by Mah and Zaros. Where are the flaws on Zaros, Guthix, or Seren? They have.

Guthix is still going underway I believe, but to know the flaws on Zaros and Seren, I would recommend doing Children of Mah and Sliske's Endgame. What you said before about Zamorak rebelling against a fate dictated by Mah and Zaros could be considered a flaw on Zaros' part (he is labelled as a god-emperor and has the ability to instil loyalty within those close to him), and the Empire was known to raise ethical questions such as getting humans, demons and vampyres to live with each other. The demons had a complicated and carefully knitted network; the Avernics were slaves who became embittered regardless of their Chthonian masters' intent and non-aggressive goals, such as advancing culture and art.

As for Seren, she had come to the Mahjarrat disguised as Mah and taught them rituals to sacrifice themselves in order to return their energy back to the real Mah. This can be considered to some a horrific act to a needless cause since Mah was a vegetable, and the other Mah creations were led to killing each other.

Every god and philosophy has flaws as well as merits; all life falls on a spectrum. We all have our good and bad bits, and the reason why Saradomin is so maligned now is because he spent such a long time as the stereotypical "good guy". Contrasts became a huge bombshell, and then he got painted as a tyrannical monster from then on. And the same can be said for Zamorak in reverse; the devil turned into a heroic revolutionary after DAT. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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12-Apr-2017 16:27:41

Raleirosen

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BarryManilow said :
Instead, Zaros was given the brooding anti-hero treatment despite being depicted as near-omnipotent before his big reveal. A better treatment for his character would be him trying to get his old empire back (and believing that it would lead to another golden age like his reign in the second age), but is a bit oblivious that doing so will lead to the loss of thousands of lives and widescale destruction. That makes no sense. Right now Zaros' primary motivation is to ascend to Elderhood (almost certainly so that he can become Fate itself and control everything). What would be his motivation for establishing another empire?

BarryManilow said :
For a role playing game, Runescape seems really intent on pushing you towards a certain narrative. First, they convinced you that Guthix is actually a super sympathetic being by making him a victim. Then they tried to convince you that Zaros will save us all. Speak for yourself. Plenty of us remain unconvinced of both of those; trying to say that they're "narratives" being pushed by Jagex is tenuous, especially in the latter case. The only people trying to convince you that Zaros will save everyone is Zaros himself and his lunatic followers, and in game you're free to spit in their faces. If you fall for Zaros' manipulations, that's on you, not Jagex.

Though I do agree that RuneScape is starting to lack crucial RPG elements in its storytelling. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

12-Apr-2017 19:32:14 - Last edited on 12-Apr-2017 19:37:38 by Raleirosen

Lego Miester
Nov Member 2023

Lego Miester

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Astraea L said :


“I was reminded of something Saradomin once told me...that he has never desired war, but we must fight to preserve peace. If we do not stand before the swarm, it will consume us. 'Some must die so all can live. Sacrifices must be made for the greater good.' Now those I swore to protect die in my name. They suffer for my mistake. It is a painful lesson, the kind of knowledge that forever changes one's ideals. I am finally beginning to understand the necessity of what happened on Naragun.

I've still been using that as more evidence towards my headcanon that Saradomin, roughly when Tuska showed up, attempted to stop conquering and start defending the naragi. Ultimately having his armies destroyed (both extraterrestial and any naragi under his command, explaining why none made it out with him) and being forced to flee to save his own skin. He realizes that his crown drew the other gods there, and holds himself accountable both for the harm he dealt and the harm he attracted that he failed to defend them from. "They suffered for my mistake."

BarryManilow said :
Then they tried to convince you that Zaros will save us all.

Did they? They certainly didn't succeed with me. Watching him get shot down with one word was immensely satisfying. "No." Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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13-Apr-2017 03:40:49 - Last edited on 13-Apr-2017 03:43:05 by Lego Miester

Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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Astraea L said :

“But Saradomin doesn’t really do things for the greater good!” you might argue. “He’s a power-hungry liar who is just trying to get on everyone’s good side so they’ll blindly follow him!” That brings us to my next point…

I'd argue it can be both. Self-justification is such a human trait. They wouldn't have put "you're a two-faced god. All you want is power." in the dialogue options of TWW if there wasn't an ounce of truth to it. As he crushed the power of the crater in his hand, he did it with a very satisfied smirk. As you threatened his plans for more power and followers he boils and blasts at you to get you to drop the wand. He left Naragun well before the naragi were extinct to save his own hide.

He cares about his followers, but he also cares about himself. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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13-Apr-2017 03:51:20

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Maiden China said :
Lego Miester said :
Did they? They certainly didn't succeed with me. Watching him get shot down with one word was immensely satisfying. "No." did Jas say that? I can see where Kerapac gets it :P Yep, followed up by "No matter how brightly a flame burns, it can never become a star." Zaros didn't take it very well.

Also, as to certain gods not having flaws, that's clearly untrue. Seren is responsible for the Mahjarrat's barbaric culture, because she couldn't let go of Mah'mmy. She then made the elves literally addicted to her, but knowingly left some on Tardiddad to die of withdrawals when she moved into her boyfriend's house to Gielinor. Seren then played isolationist for years, tried to rid herself of her negative traits and created a monster, and exploded herself without first making sure the elves were ready for life in her absence (indirectly leading to the civil unrest that lead to the elven civil war).

Zaros may well be a high operating sociopath and thinks it's his birthright to become part of the very problem we're trying to solve. His "solution" to the Elder Gods is so baldfacedly self-serving it's laughable. Zaros has an excuse for everything about how he's always been in the right, but I don't buy it.

Guthix is a great example of how inaction has its own consequences. It's great to die with your convictions and all, but the people who are going to suffer because Guthix would rather pass the buck to World Guardian might see things differently. Guthix could have prevented the 6th age by sneezing on Sliske. Let's not forget to become his guardian we were forced to answer his survey in a certain way, which included taking cruel actions. Or how, first year aside, the gods have acted less like a world ending threat and more like a grumpy family reunion since they returned. All while Sliske was actively trying to incite war.

14-Apr-2017 00:00:01 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2017 00:15:57 by Rifleavenger

Thatds

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I'll admit, when it first came into play, I intensely the multiple angles thing Jagex was trying to pull with the gods; making bad look good, making good look bad, etc., etc.

But, the narrative has grown on me. My only issue is that ever since Saradomin came to Gielinor, we really haven't seen him in a good light; although, maybe that's because all the light does is expose his most problematic flaws.

It's definitely concerning that the most powerful individuals throughout the ages have been either aggressively 'preaching' their morals by way of conquest, temperamental and murderous, or outright feral, tearing through planets and/or daily sacrifices for lunch.

Hell, even the Elder Gods, who hold enough power to wipe ever speck of life out of existence, are completely apathetic/derisive of our existence.

They care just barely enough to give us one chance (or four, one for each surviving Elder, if you prefer) to prove that we're worth keeping around, and if we fail, they're going to end everything - probably to the point of actively squashing the remains of all sentient life.
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14-Apr-2017 02:41:31

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