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In Defense of Saradomin

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Hguoh

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Saradomin had to appreciate diversity of culture by acknowledging the Icyene customs and letting it be carried out their way.

How odd that he doesn't appear to 'appreciate diversity' when it comes to Zamorakian or Bandosian cultures.

If he doesn't accept diversity of culture as an excuse for what he considers barbaric acts, I don't see why we should take it as an excuse for when he commits such acts.

Padomenes said :
The measures were based on a different culture, what was done to Garlandia was done because Icyenic culture and honours deemed it fitting in update. Why can't you look at and acknowledge, respect the difference in cultures instead of hating or being racist, bigoted to another because you think your own is superior according to whatever fascistic viewpoints you hold?

It's fairly common knowledge that the Aztecs and other Mesoamerican civilizations practiced human sacrifice. Numerous theories were postulated to explain the prevalence of the phenomenon.

It was suggested that they were missing an essential protein and used the meat from the sacrifices to fill that gap, but an analysis of the common diet of the time shows that no such protein was missing.

It was suggested that it was used as a method of political control via terrorism of the local populations, but as the practice can be traced back to the very beginning of cultures in Mesoamerica it clearly wasn't just invented for this purpose. Heck, nobles were often made sacrifices because a sacrificial death was considered a great honor, so it obviously wasn't a case of the nobles in power controlling those beneath them.

No, every sign points to it having simply been a central aspect of their religions that had no other reason for being performed. They had simply carried on the tradition with the expectation that it was working and that stopping would be disastrous.

02-Oct-2017 11:03:08 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2017 11:18:30 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Knowing better (i.e. sacrificing a child will not influence whether it will rain or not), would you still plunge the knife into a sacrifice if they invited you to participate in their rituals? I don't want to know if you'd try and change the whole civilization's practices, just whether you'd participate in it when you know better and aren't under threat of death.

02-Oct-2017 11:21:41 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2017 11:23:50 by Hguoh

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Hguoh said :
How odd that he doesn't appear to 'appreciate diversity' when it comes to Zamorakian or Bandosian cultures.

If he doesn't accept diversity of culture as an excuse for what he considers barbaric acts, I don't see why we should take it as an excuse for when he commits such acts.

Between Bandos' endless warfare that causes the death of countless people (the God Wars would not have been nearly as long without his side-shifting games), and Zamorak's causing disasters that kill many so the survivors can "grow", I do feel there has to be a limit to tradition.

After Saradomin's own self-admitted failings in Naragun, I doubt he wants a repeat of any of that.

It really is an unfair comparison, given the Icyenic punishment listed was for those who broke laws (criminals in the eyes of society), and not some pointless mass death. That said, it's still not pleasant, and even Saradomin was horrified by the experience, his expression not happy as he recounted the details like it happened moments ago (while his deeds have left some taint on his soul, that he's still affected strongly by them when he does something like that at least shows he retains his humanity).

While Saradomin recognizes the importance of the greater good...that doesn't mean he's always happy with his actions for that goal. I feel like future quests with Saradomin should use the World Guardian's influence to help affect change for him. In Sliske's Endgame
I was able to convince Saradomin that the Stone of Jas wasn't the only way to achieve Utopia, and there are better paths for it.
Damn shame that dialogue option wasn't transcripted.

Seren mentioned something along those lines. I'd love to be the one to guide Saradomin's hand back a bit on to the path. Take a few more risks on kinder paths (and hope they don't blow up in our faces), and ease some of that burden on Saradomin's soul. I'd like to help him be the best god he can be.

03-Oct-2017 21:07:24

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Mewzard, I wasn't criticizing Saradomin there. I was criticizing Padomenes apologetics for Saradomin's actions regarding Garlandia.

I personally believe that Saradomin acted rashly and with poor judgement in that situation, and I won't let him gloss over and forget his barbarity then. I do, however,think he's trying to do better. The fact that he falls short and/or relapses just tells us that, despite his attempts to distance himself from his human origins, he's still got a lot of that irrational, hot-headed, and overconfident humanity in him (for better and for worse).

I won't forgive him for his mistakes, I won't let him forget them, and I won't let him pretend that they weren't mistakes, but I don't believe that they make him irredeemable either. He wants to improve and I hope he does, but I honestly don't feel like that'll happen if I just bow down and praise him. I will be critical.

04-Oct-2017 02:30:21

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Sorry, misunderstood the post.

Saradomin is, for better or worse, the epitome of humanity in many ways. He can be caring and passionate, defending the innocent with the strength of his convictions...but he can also be rash, impulsive, and temperamental. He wants to be the best god he can be to save lives and bring peace...but he's got his own faults to work out.

I definitely feel that the World Guardian above all others is in the perfect position to help make those last steps towards true, lasting self-improvement...should they choose to help in that regard. Just as sycophants who can see no fault with him can't help him better himself, people who choose to do nothing but berate him, insult him, and call him evil can't help either, as people tend not to listen to those who absolutely vilify them.

He needs to hear a critical voice, but not one that's full of venom and hate. One that sounds reasonable and fair. That's the best way to get through I say.

If anything, perhaps getting closer to humanity might remind him what good comes from that simple mortal existence.

04-Oct-2017 05:01:59

Byzantinist

Byzantinist

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Spoiler alert: Saradomin deeply cares for his pets: while Zamorakians are being locked away in cellars, they get fed all the leftovers of meat he's got in store. Speaking of his hospitality, here's a snap from just a few mins ago.
Sometimes one must operate within the
shadows
to serve the
light
. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

12-Oct-2017 23:50:37 - Last edited on 12-Oct-2017 23:51:53 by Byzantinist

Inque
Nov Member 2013

Inque

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I love your stories on Archive, Jex! I just read First Blade a few days ago and it was awesome!

Anyways, onto the thread: just remember that Saradomin is no more good than Zamorak is evil. That's how I see things, at least.
You can't read this signature. It's written in invisible inque.

14-Oct-2017 15:36:33

Byzantinist

Byzantinist

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Inque said :
I love your stories on Archive, Jex! I just read First Blade a few days ago and it was awesome!

Anyways, onto the thread: just remember that Saradomin is no more good than Zamorak is evil. That's how I see things, at least.

As far as I'm aware, every god's had blood on their hands at some point and as such cannot inherently be called neither evil nor good. An important aspect of wise rulers I deeply value is that they do not take themselves for infallible.

For example, an ancient king once said: " I am a sinner because it is impossible to reign without committing the greatest sins. " Ironically, this man was sanctified by the pope. It shows how meaningless morals can be to certain rulers.

I think it does not suffice to categorize someone as bad or evil, one must also ask themselves what the worst and best reason for what they say and do to others could be, and what the thing is that they want for doing so. One should attempt to understand the accuser's perspective as well, like that pope. Do they denounce or glorify others for their own gain or is it out of pure altruism?

No matter what we believe, gods are just as flawed as humans are, and need to make things good to be recognized as worthy and respected by mortals for their past actions before they are terminated, for they could change into the exact opposite of what people had claimed before, as their consciousness (thoughts) and actions occasionally twist or bend over time.

Finally, I appreciate how people don't get stuck in time and only judge little fragments of their existence, and also try to analyze the whole as well as they can, as lore keeps evolving for any god and can take 180 degrees turns at all times. Sometimes one must operate within the
shadows
to serve the
light
. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

15-Oct-2017 20:18:12

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