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Myreque VI+ - what we know

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Mod Rowley

Mod Rowley

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While it's true that moral ambiguity does not inherently lead to a better character, it is a very useful tool for adding more complexity and realism to a character (and resonance with the reader/viewer). It's actually more about avoiding the reverse - purely black & white characterisation tends towards one-dimensional characterisation and overly simplistic narratives. Such an approach is typically the preserve of children's stories, fables, fairy tales and the like.

The point is to (hopefully, eventually) lead to more complex and interesting characters than just 'Saradomin good, Zamorak bad'. I'm sure that the majority of people still wouldn't want to side with Vanescula, but knowing that she has a deeper driving force than 'I rule now, ha ha' creates more narrative friction, a more engaging narrative, and more interesting possibilities for narrative conclusion than just 'Vanescula bad=defeat her=happy ever after'.

That's massively oversimplifying things, of course, and there are places and reasons to use more simplistic characterisation, and we can, should and do still do so. I just don't feel Vanescula has ever been a simplistic, one-note character, so giving her more depth was a natural thing to aim for. Now, you could argue that wasn't achieved... ;)

06-Jan-2016 14:55:05 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2016 14:57:00 by Mod Rowley

PyraTheAegis
Jan Member 2005

PyraTheAegis

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A bit off topic but how will you fix Nomad? He went from a cool grey character to a generic "ha ha ha I want power give it to me" cartoon villain.
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06-Jan-2016 15:07:42 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2016 15:08:29 by PyraTheAegis

Kemtros
Aug Member 2022

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Mod Rowley said :
We are (and I am) certainly not infallible, that much is true, but there is nothing in the (very short) dialogue regarding the Edicts at the end of TLoV that clashes with what the Edicts are believed to be by the characters in the Myreque series (nor with what the Edicts actually are/were).

I ask this only so that any confusion can be cleared up (be that on here or in-game).

In Darkness of Hallowvale, Roald says "If I send troops we will start a bloody war and both Saradominist and Zamorakian forces will collide. It will tempt another god war, and followers of Guthix are bound by oath to fight to keep the balance. When all three sides are joined in war, according to the edicts, Guthix will 'reawaken and remake the world without mercy for the pain of beast or man.'" Later, Safalaan says "I seem to remember that 'Guthixian edicts' have been given as a reason before when help was requested." During the quest, Drezel dismisses Guthix as being less powerful than Saradomin, showing how biased he is, and making it harder to even trust the sources of discussion on the Edicts.

Legacy of Seergaze mostly only brought it up in reference to the splinter group, while Branches of Darkmeyer never included it. Looking over the transcripts, and Aeonis** has been the only one to ever initiate discussion about the Edicts, and the most that I got from Lord of Vampyrium was the player and Roald shutting down Aeonis** when he tried to cite it again.

I think Lord of Vampyrium showed that you do "have a clue" what the Edicts are. It's just that all the conflicts within the series so far have pushed everyone towards a breaking point. I don't think there's any confusion you'll have to clear up, though if there's anything in-game, I hope this isn't requesting anything you can't reveal, but are there are least plans for the splinter group in River of Blood?

06-Jan-2016 16:17:28

Kemtros
Aug Member 2022

Kemtros

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PyraTheAegis said :
A bit off topic but how will you fix Nomad? He went from a cool grey character to a generic "ha ha ha I want power give it to me" cartoon villain.

Nomad talking about his master didn't make him cool of grey. Even during Nomad's Requiem, he was still just as much the kind of cartoon villain you describe, so much so that his characterization in Dishonour Among Thieves made perfect sense to me.

06-Jan-2016 16:19:35

Mod Rowley

Mod Rowley

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Kemtros said :
I don't think there's any confusion you'll have to clear up, though if there's anything in-game, I hope this isn't requesting anything you can't reveal, but are there are least plans for the splinter group in River of Blood?

I can give a very honest answer to that...and it's simply that this hasn't been determined yet. There are things I know will feature coming off the back fof TLoV, things I've been thinking about over the Xmas break, but I've only just this week started writing anything down in a design. :)

As for Nomad, it's way off-topic. I'll leave him to whoever's working on that quest.

06-Jan-2016 17:03:19 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2016 17:04:07 by Mod Rowley

Balustan

Balustan

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Mod Rowley said :
Balustan said :
The problem with addressing the advisor s to do so they need to deal with the Edicts as understood by the characters in the Myreque series, but Jagex don't have a clue what that is as evidenced by LoV.

I'm sorry, Balustan, but you're going to have to explain how you reached this conclusion.

We are (and I am) certainly not infallible, that much is true, but there is nothing in the (very short) dialogue regarding the Edicts at the end of TLoV that clashes with what the Edicts are believed to be by the characters in the Myreque series (nor with what the Edicts actually are/were).

I ask this only so that any confusion can be cleared up (be that on here or in-game).

I have been following this quite closely. The confusion is clear from the line that is "Everybody is breaking the Edicts." probably not the exact line but that's the gist. This is blatantly not true. Now our character could be being their usual idiot self as an explanation of them being completely wrong.

The Edicts as understood by the Myreque series is escalating conflicts by bringing forces from other planes. You could argue Drakan brought himself but other than that nobody has violated the Edicts as it were. Vanescula easily could violate them by bringing Ventors though this seems unlikely to happen given her dialogue in LoV.

The splinter group have taken no actions. It is pretty clear their aims are to use the events of the Myreque series to get around the Edicts to then carry out some further goal of their own. That goal could be anything. I don't really care what that is. It's possible the edicts are not circumvented and then they fail but then it becomes an entirely pointless subplot.

Another bit of misinformation Jagex appear to be under is that the Edicts as understood by the characters in Myreque are something that is triggered automatically when in fact they act more
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06-Jan-2016 20:47:14

Balustan

Balustan

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like the law. If you break the law you aren't automatically jailed or w/e somebody just report you etc. the Edicts work just like that at least the characters of Myreque believe they do.

Now Misthalin apparently has to sign up to the Edicts specifically and has them in writing which the church is currently going through to find a loop hole.

I understand the main point was keeping the armies out of the quests but this subplot needs resolved. The edicts could be a farce by Guthixians for political gain as the Myreque series even suggests or a further course of action on top of the barrier. Clearly the remaking the world stuff is absolutely made up though and comes from another lore event being conflated with the edicts.

Best way to deal with it? Honestly not sure. Have Splinter group get your aid in convincing Vanescula to bring Venators which would force Misthalin's hand or even the Guthixians' hand and maybe either reveal them as a farce or have a loophole found. Could go many ways. There is no need to deal with the Splinter Group specifically in the finale. That could be some in a bottle quest somewhere down the line frankly.

Edit: Actually I should be clearer about the splinter group. They see the events of Myreque leading to a point where they no longer need to worry about them for their plan rather than them doing anything. Well unless one of them happens to be a certain advisor... In which case he did the actions he needed to earlier in the series it's just a waiting game to be rid of them.
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06-Jan-2016 20:55:10 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2016 21:12:10 by Balustan

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Autumn Elite said :
I do worry, through no fault of your own, if it isn't a bit too late. I mean we are starting the finale with the most sympathetic vampire we've encountered being Mornid, a tertiary character at best.

Really for optimal effect this process should have began much earlier. This is also part of the reason I dislike Branches of Darkmeyer. That was the perfect opportunity to add some greyness to the vampires, seeing them in their natural setting. An greyness that would have made choices hard and a complex storyline with emotional impact. But instead we got "oh how evil" cliches. Branches was a real weak point choosing to disregard arcs and any attempt at characterisation.
Taking into account your disliking of the series, I couldn't disagree more. Why would you make the vampyres more grey? They are evil . We're working with Misthalin and the Myreque to free Morytania from their struggle. Whatever your personal impression of Lowerniel Drakan, remember his actions: it is due to him that thousands if not millions of humans and Icyene found death or conversion to vampyre, he has slaughtered and effectively enslaved the remaining population, treating them as cattle. Personally, I found Mornid to be a good character, but slightly odd; should have been more passive-aggressive if you ask me.

Besides, it's not like we're suddenly going to turn on Misthalin in the finale. This is not Nomad, who is both a villain and a protagonist for his story arc. Like Lucien, like Grayzag, like Bandos, the vampyres are the bad guys in the Myreque series and there's no point in making them more sympathetic or whatever, because they simply are an evil, vile race. It is in their nature. Making vampyres more morally grey is like making a slim ogre or an intelligent troll. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

08-Jan-2016 09:20:57

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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As for the Edicts; Balustan's above posts are largely correct. The Edicts, according to the characters, prevent a full-scale war between Saradominists and Zamorakians (even though vampyres aren't Zamorakian, but what do the humans know) because that would result in beings from other worlds being brought in to fight, Guthixians joining, Guthix awakening and reshaping RuneScape entirely. At least, that's what the Guthixians say about the Edicts. The bit about Guthix awakening and nuking the world is highly unlikely to have ever been true, but that's what people think; the Church of Saradomin is currently trying to find a loop hole in the Edicts to be able to go to war.

In TLoV, it's established Vanescula is going to attack Misthalin. This by itself would not immediately cause Guthix to awaken of course, but Misthalin now has a choice enforced: either let the vampyres waltz over them, which would risk a breach of the Edicts and thus the end of the world, or defend itself leading to another war with Morytania, which would risk a breach of the Edicts and thus the end of the world. The conundrum here is that Vanescula is unaware of or couldn't care less about (probably the latter) the Edicts and is going to attack anyway (also the finale would be fairly bad if it involved you walking up to Vanescula, informing her of the Edicts, and her saying "Oh drat. Well, never mind then, I'll just have the people in Meiyerditch breed or something. Quest complete! &quot ;) . Therefore the Edicts are already out the window; whatever Misthalin does, there's a good chance that the Guthixians won't like it because Morytania is already attacking. Thus, the best way forward for Misthalin would be to defend themselves and hope Guthix won't destroy everything.

Applying this logic, I reckon TLoV and DoH are consistent with one another. The only thing is that the Church's effort to work around the Edicts have proven a bit futile. Unless of course they manage to find a way for Misthalin to Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

08-Jan-2016 09:33:22

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