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Salt in the Wound—the problems

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Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Wahisietel said :
Honestly, I don't think Eva should have been introduced in Salt in the Wound. The finale of a quest series is FAR too late to introduce what is supposed to be one of the main protagonists. Sure, she'd be fine if she was introduced or at least referenced in a previous quest, but she just comes out of nowhere.

If they needed a character to fill the Melee spot, they should have just included Sir Tiffy instead. I imagine they didn't do that because Ritual of the Mahjarrat was in development at the time, but a rework wouldn't have that issue.

Also, some points regarding Kennith. He's definitely not connected to the slugs. Kennith's Concerns shows him to be acting independently of them, and to "simply" be a child with extraordinary powers. Of course, Ezekial does hint that there's more to how he got those powers in the first place, saying that there's something fundamentally wrong with Witchaven.

And while Kennith growing up did make sense, it deserved to get more of an explanation than it did, since it wasn't explained too well, and some players who kind of forgot what happened in the previous quest thought that Kennith having magical powers was an asspull. That said, I disagree with Jagex's choice to age him up in the first place; it had no real reason besides Jagex's reluctance to show a child in combat. (Smiddi Ryak also suffers from this). And yet they allow us to kill gnome children, what blatant racism towards gnomes!

He's definitely creepier as a child, and aging him up kind of got rid of his main attribute, that being a "creepy child with sinister powers". Any SITW rework should have him stay as a child, maybe with a protective shield if Jagex are worried about showing violence to children. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

05-Apr-2015 13:57:50 - Last edited on 27-Apr-2015 08:23:09 by Lord Drakan

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
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Lore threads
- 30 pages of obscure lore
- Reflection on diminishing quest releases
- Theory about runecrafting altars
- Cast your vote for the best quest in the game!
- What's in store for Myreque VI and VII?
- The Cursed Archipelago and the Wushanko
- Why the Necrosy*tes torched Saranthium

RuneLabs
- Elemental Workshop V
- Druids' Circle series finale
- Lodestone rebalance ( thread )
- Gnomish Acquisitions ( thread )
- Penguins IV

Quest suggestions (old)
- Night of the Kinshra
- Valrot in the Shadows series
- When Demons Walk
- A Temple Devoured

Miscellania
- More books for POH bookcase
- Buff environmental damage
- A story about gnomes and elves
- Minigame and D&D ninja improvements


*More of a list for myself for when bumping threads. :P Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

05-Apr-2015 13:58:12 - Last edited on 01-Jun-2015 18:35:21 by Lord Drakan

Apple iQuest

Apple iQuest

Posts: 914 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As you've said, the quest would've been decent as a stand-alone story, but as a finale for the Sea Slug series... just no. Had they gone with the original plan, I'm pretty sure this series would've gone on for a long time, all the way up to grandmaster level for the finale. It's a real shame it didn't.

The story was pretty atrocious, from the random anti-mind control serum to the great pillar-smash, but for the time it was released in, the gameplay itself was actually okay. Controlling the other characters was pretty fun, and that's pretty much the only redeeming factor the quest had.

The main problem was that the quest was a finale to a great series. Had it been a stand-alone quest, in which the enemy would've been replaced with some criminal or other, it would've been just fine.

Maybe you've already read it, but my Call of the Sea quest suggestion aims to fix most of the problems you've mentioned here. Have a read if you like, link's in my signature. You really seem to know your lore on the sea slug series, so I'd love your feedback on things I may have missed.
My Quest Suggestions

Quest Series: Heart of the World
Quest Series: Call of the Sea

05-Apr-2015 15:31:57 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2015 15:32:26 by Apple iQuest

Laton95
May Member 2008

Laton95

Posts: 268 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Great thread. It nicely highlights the problems with SITW.

My thoughts on SITW are about what I think are its two biggest merits and my favorite parts about the quest.

I think the party control system is really unique and interesting, we only see it in this quest and in the Three's Company saga. I really like the idea of controlling other characters, as it allows them to have a greater depth and focus.
The party system was never used again after SITW, perhaps the negative reception of the quest attributed to that. It could be interesting to see it used again. We've been seeing more other character control recently, both DAT and DOD had us controlling Nomad/Arrav, although it was only for combat scenes.

My favorite part by far of SITW (although blowing a hole in Daemonhiem was a great laugh) was the fact that we failed, we got mind controlled by the Slug Queen and couldn't save the world. We weren't the hero of this quest. This was a great use of the party system.
Despite the anticlimactic pillar-death the final part of this quest is one of my favorite questing memories because of this (and because you could talk while possessed, slug queen roleplay begins).
The player so rarely fails to succeed, the only other times I can think of is in WGS, and we failed quite badly there. And in TWW, unless you wanted Guthix to die.

05-Apr-2015 15:55:35

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Apple iQuest said :
As you've said, the quest would've been decent as a stand-alone story, but as a finale for the Sea Slug series... just no. Had they gone with the original plan, I'm pretty sure this series would've gone on for a long time, all the way up to grandmaster level for the finale. It's a real shame it didn't.

The story was pretty atrocious, from the random anti-mind control serum to the great pillar-smash, but for the time it was released in, the gameplay itself was actually okay. Controlling the other characters was pretty fun, and that's pretty much the only redeeming factor the quest had.

The main problem was that the quest was a finale to a great series. Had it been a stand-alone quest, in which the enemy would've been replaced with some criminal or other, it would've been just fine.

Maybe you've already read it, but my Call of the Sea quest suggestion aims to fix most of the problems you've mentioned here. Have a read if you like, link's in my signature. You really seem to know your lore on the sea slug series, so I'd love your feedback on things I may have missed.
I'll certainly take a look.

For me, ending the series with an experienced quest instead of a grandmaster is fine. After all, the Dorgeshuun series ended with an experienced quest, and it was absolutely phenomenal. I'm also fine with Mother Mallum not being a traditional combat boss, which I also recall as being player criticism.

But the story, in its role as a finale to the series, is...well, dung. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

05-Apr-2015 15:56:42

Kemtros
Aug Member 2022

Kemtros

Posts: 5,407 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
While I don't hate this quest as much as others do, I recognize why it's such a bad finale. The unofficial wiki mentions that this quest ignores the plot that was set up, which I didn't quite understand, so thank you for explaining what that meant. Going off of what I was aiming for with my Sea Slugs thread, I guess it's only fitting if I respond to each of your major points.

1. The Slug Prince's revival could be a way of continuing the threads left either hanging or unceremoniously resolved. However, given that SitW was intended as the finale, they would need perhaps an trilogy with the Slug Prince to make up for that. I still want a Penguin/Slug series mix, but the Slug Prince may distract from the Pescallion serving as the main antagonist. Alternatively, the Slug Prince could provide an opportunity for us to work alongside the Penguins to combat a greater evil, but the nature of the series may hold the Slug Prince from creating the kind of scenario that would befit a finale.

2.
- It's possible that Bilrach hadn't started digging when MM first invaded. However, that's an attempt at an explanation on my part, when it could very easily just be an oversight.
- The use of magic without runes would relate to his unexplained source of magic, and I believe him being aged up was done because they didn't want to portray someone as young as he usually is in combat. He expressed a possible interest in going to Wizard's Tower, and while I think that was just intended as a throwaway line, it could be used to explore the nature of his powers.
- If we were to seal MM away again, the inevitable question would be what happens when some other stupid adventurer frees her, so of course we had to kill her. I think a unique way for defeating her does make sense. The problem is that it's now only unique because of how infamous it is.
- Looking over the transcript, and the problem with Maledict opening the door is that, while it does make sense, it's too short.

05-Apr-2015 16:32:19

Kemtros
Aug Member 2022

Kemtros

Posts: 5,407 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
3.
- The problem with moving past Kennith's Concerns is that it happens off-screen. It still meant something to Kennith, but it's treated as little more than a reason for him to grow up, but we only empathize with him out of a basic need to understand his character.
- I've really got nothing for MM, because she's just pathetic. Her generic doomsday dialogue is just there to try and convince us about the gravity of the situation. Take, for example, the Dark Lord. While she constantly mentioned death, her monologue eventually lasted long enough to inform us on why she has the obsession to death. The battle was able to not only show off the sheer arrogance of the Dark Lord, but also make us understand her. However, because MM is "the mother of all evil", she's treated as nothing more than that, just this unstoppable force of evil. Granted, there are stories where that does work, but for all the talk about her being one of the greatest enemies of the Temple Knights, she doesn't feel like she deserves that hype beyond the base idea of the sea slugs.

4. Dungeoneering had only been featured in A Clockwork Syringe and the Fremennik Sagas, with Three's Company having been released a month prior. If anything, the problem is that we needed a seeker at all. A monster's gland being able to weaken the control makes perfect sense, and the void pests could work because that was also a Temple Knights series, though I suspect that the two series were intended to be separate. If anything, they had the whole of Kandarin to use so that the enemy is somewhere closer to Witchaven. This was definitely a case of trying to push a skill not working with the design of the quest. In fact, Dungeoneering wasn't even required for another quest until One of a Kind, so I think it's safe to say that this particular choice is one that backfired the most out of anything else in the quest.

05-Apr-2015 16:32:52 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2015 16:53:09 by Kemtros

Kemtros
Aug Member 2022

Kemtros

Posts: 5,407 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
5. As I said before, the Slug Prince could be used to try this again, and given the push for vilify Saradomin, as well as all the hints that the White Knights are not what they seem, this could be used to further tension between the White Knights and the Temple Knights. However, the Slug quests came during a time where I felt that they were trying to have various quest series sort of "compete" to be the main story. Hunt for Red Raktuber not only involved the slugs, but also alluded to the Red Axe, with Forgiveness of a Chaos Dwarf showing a gnome engineer, and that in turn suggests a possible connection to the gnome series, but that in turn leads you to the elf series, and that particular mess has been brought up in a couple other threads. And yet, WGS had come out the year before all of this, which might have made it harder for those connections to really "stand out". This is just my own perception of the various series we have, but given the response to quests such as Birthright of the Dwarves, I'm willing to believe that there were several plans for a bunch of these questlines to come together, most of which just got outright abandoned, and that played into SitW's narrowed focus being as disappointing as it is. I would be happy to be told I'm wrong, though.

6. Going back to what I said with Bilrach, more lore would allow some plot holes to be filled, with apparent contradictions being explained away. Plus, it would also allow the inclusion of Dungeoneering to fit in with the quest more.

7. I think the promotion was left out of RotM because, given the jump from Initiate to Proselyte, a proportional jump to Acolyte would probably be too low-level a reward for that quest. But that's more about RotM than the subject at hand. The XP rewards were very generous, but bounded ammunition means nothing to melee fighters, while Acolyte armor certainly would. Maybe they thought melee players had already had their fair share of rewards?

05-Apr-2015 16:33:03 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2015 17:09:14 by Kemtros

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