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Britisher

Britisher

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Rondstat said :
And now we can just say, 'nope, undo' and bring her back. Which will cheapen the significance/impact of her story and sacrifice, but whatevs, player power! Indeed.

Amascut said :
Last Prophet said :
Of all the gods, I feel that Seren is the most faithful to Jagex's original vision for her. Ya know, I really agree with this as well. Her character has always remained ambiguous, so see no clear "original version" as such.

Solanumtinkr said :
Seren shattered her self, she did not destroy herself, there is a big difference. Her destruction would have also meant the destruction of the elven race. Is that what you want ? Because... FREE MORTALS?
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you." —
Seren

25-Jul-2015 17:43:58 - Last edited on 25-Jul-2015 17:47:08 by Britisher

Autumn Elite

Autumn Elite

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Well just to start, I think it is important to say you should wait for the quest first.

Armies of Gielinor was never firmly cannon. So any changes from that is just more of clarity rather than retconning things. Plus didnt they say Seren did fight some zamorakian forces?

As for Plagues End and Elf City, there is a difference between expanding her characters to include negatives and bashing the characters. From what I have heard, Seren is incredibly well liked. I only have seen one person who has a really negative opinion on her, she is mostly liked. It seems like the majority here will support her.

As for your points for other factions, I don't think you can say Zaros being logical in the crystals and Seren being emotional is bias as that is just their characters. If Seren was logical, she would just be a weak Zaros copy. As for Armadyl, he hasn't been given any content so I don't see how anyone can have come to a logical conclusion about me. I don't see how it can be argued Seren is being bashed and Armadyl favoured when Seren is getting a third piece of sizeable content about her (Plagues End goes into her past, Prif details her relationship with the elves and it appears this quest will see us talk to her plus Fate of the Gods gave memorial crystals) whilst Armadyl has been shelved since 2013.

I also gather that the Seren is crazy comes from the thread about the runelabs idea, where the general consensus was being shattered for years would leave some psychological damage. I'm lad they are addressing this as it would be weird not to and seems a logical way to portray Seren in a balanced light without making her wildly different from what she herself has informed us to be like.

25-Jul-2015 18:06:44

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Rondstat said :
I always feel a bit dismayed when I see folks who are so much more invested in the arbitrary 'rank' of their faction, whether in popularity, virtue, etc, than in the quality of the storyline. Before the 6th Age, Seren was a vaguely defined goddess of peace and the Anima Mundi. She wasn't a character, but a general concept - which was fine for content back then.

In expanding her into a character, though, I think she's been very well-handled, second only to Saradomin, and far better than Zaros or Zamorak. Hers is one of the most tragic stories in Runescape. Her aeons-long lifetime is spent in vain search for belonging, for a community and ties that are true and nurturing, and not manipulative, psychologically degenerative, or obligatory as were the relationships that spawned her. Yet she does not realize, or chooses to ignore, her own inadvertent complicity in the abusiveness of these relationships, and continues to create a state of passive violence against those she loves.

Her relationship with Guthix, in particular, is heart rending. There is a Portugues term, saudade, that signifies a nostalgia for that which can never be again, and the sadness and loss that go with this. That is the scene, as Seren and Guthix meet at the close of the 3rd Age, those who would have, should have loved one another, now meeting as enemies because of who they are, Seren forced to reveal herself as no better than the warmongers Guthix has expelled, Guthix forced to grapple with the inherent fault in his scheme.

Guthix and the Elves are the loves of Seren's life, and she has let them down, hurt them, and the only way for her to fully make amends, the only way to preserve hers and their love, is to sacrifice herself fully - her destruction is her ultimate penance, the final expression of her absolute devotion.

And now we can just say, 'nope, undo' and bring her back. Which will cheapen the significance/impact of Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

25-Jul-2015 18:54:38

Velia
Jan Member 2020

Velia

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Britisher said :
If this is to be the case I intend to abandon the faction which I have followed so loyally, and perhaps even the game itself. Pffff*t- lol! I'd remove that part before some worse trolls than I come along, that little line is just begging for further probing and ridicule. Gotta say, I'm already struggling to take this seriously...

I can't (actually, no-one) can accurately speak for how much the player will influence this 'new' Seren, so I won't say 'Oh it's no big deal', but I will say that it's your individual choice for how Seren ends up in your game. The actions of someone who 'sabotages' her have no bearing on whatever you choose.

As for Seren herself... she is effectively in a state of 'death', being shattered and all that. Such a change to one's physical self is bound to create some mental change, after all, Zaros' 'death' (being a ball isolated on Freneskrae) brought about changes to his beliefs that I'm sure none of his followers truly anticipated.

Although, they 'died' under different circumstances, left in different states, and are different entities, they'd reflect differently upon their situation/life, and there's no telling how much they may change, whether it be a little or a lot.

Really I can't, and again no-one can tell you anything that will put you at ease. There are too many variables, too many personal character reflections to anticipate what will happen. All I can say though, is that whatever the change, it's all up to you to deal with it. And may I remind you, you can change as well, nor do you have to completely agree with your figurehead (I know I don't).

...yeah and I'm still laughing at you and your over-dramatic comment.

25-Jul-2015 19:03:30

Velia
Jan Member 2020

Velia

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Now, In light of my post here, I feel that this is relevant: Original message details are unavailable.
Original message details are unavailable.
Two nitpicks about resurrection; wouldn't the (formerly) deceased retain memory of their death? Yes
Original message details are unavailable.
Now how much would that mess them up? Depends on the person Death is an event of change. Even having memory of death itself is a change.

Then you need to consider that this isn't an individual change; if others know of your death, they are bound to ask of it if you suddenly 'came back'. Even if all that changes are your memories of death, others would still force a change upon you.

Seren is no different. Even if she has the same attitude, If she comes back from being shattered others will ask about it, or if they don't, will speculate, question, and be curious... perhaps even behave differently around Seren.

25-Jul-2015 19:14:25

Britisher

Britisher

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I agree with most of the comments made, and I note that I've rashly concluded and assumed aspects about this "new" Seren. I simply do not feel comfortable with the philosophies of my faction being slated by Jagex, which is possible with this... new Seren.

Of-course I am comfortable with changes to Seren's character where suitable but as stated some of these changes could jeopardise the core aspects of the Seren faction itself, thus ignoring the established lore surrounding the character of Seren and leaving many in the Seren faction without proper representation under the emissary system, not unlike followers of Guthix.

To link into what Velia has stated though, Seren demonstrates a change in persona immediately before shattering by accepting her fate - that divine beings can die - and casting away her "dark" impulses in the form of Haluned (who I believe was corrupted under the influence of the Death Altar to become the Dark Lord).
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you." —
Seren

25-Jul-2015 19:29:26 - Last edited on 25-Jul-2015 19:34:44 by Britisher

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Britisher said :
Cthris said :
Insanity- extreme foolishness or irrationality. Please stop pushing this, insanity is a serious mental illness, there is little evidence to suggest that Seren was insane: all actions which she took have clear and conscious reasoning (when taken in context Seren had clear grounds to do so, whether moral or amoral) rather than being influenced by the mental illness itself (no signs of it's many symptoms such as hallucinations or delusions). Furthermore this is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a difference between ignorance and irrational: something you appear to overlook. Irrationality is something without logic or reasoning - it is already well established what Seren's motives were... So your suggestion that "her first sign of irrationality was when she met the elves" is incorrect - this was in fact ignorance on her part for failing to comprehend or understand the elves relationship with her.

Your quotes regarding Einstein is very questionable, often seen by many as a misquote.

You also fail to consider that Seren's "experiments" with the elves were different in nature, therefore this does not fit into your false definition of insanity anyway!

Insanity isn't a mental illness. You can have a mental illness and be insane, and a mental illness can lead you to being insane, but not all people with mental illnesses are insane. It can either refer to the state of being seriously mentally ill, or it can mean extreme irrationality and foolishness, such as choosing to be ignorant, or ignoring help for no good reason, or torturing people when much better alternatives are available. I'm choosing the later definition to be clear, if the words other definition offends you, that's your problem.

It's interesting, every time she experiments on the elves, they get screwed over. Curse, Dark Elves etc.

25-Jul-2015 19:39:50 - Last edited on 25-Jul-2015 19:41:42 by Cthris

Britisher

Britisher

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Cthris said :

1) it can mean extreme irrationality and foolishness,
2) such as choosing to be ignorant, or ignoring help for no good reason,
3) torturing people when much better alternatives are available.
4) It's interesting, every time she experiments on the elves, they get screwed over. Curse, Dark Elves etc.
1) If you truly wish to be so pedantic.

Let's begin with the definition of rationality. Rationality is the quality or state of being reasonable, based on facts or reason: it implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's actions to believe , or of one's actions with one's reason for action.

Seren was ignorant (in the sense that she did not hold the knowledge to fully understand and comprehend the situation at hand) as opposed to irrational. We know from her memories that she was in a state of mind to execute rational decisions from her own perspective - which in hindsight was clouded by ignorance, therefore from your own definition of insanity.

Insanity is a broad term wherein not all acts which could endanger people or are outwith social normality are "insane". In a modern context the term is nearly exclusively used in relation to mental illness, so it's not apt to define Seren as "insane" when this is so deeply misleading (you will have to forgive me for using the extremely common and well-established definition of the word as opposed to a more obscure usage).
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you." —
Seren

25-Jul-2015 21:02:01

Britisher

Britisher

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So let me address the central quote which you cling to. Original message details are unavailable.
...They wanted to please me, but were reluctant to leave. They did not understand why they must, but to tell them would have shattered their innocence and their trust in me ... This is the only reasoning which Seren gives for her actions. From her own perspective she believed that the elves would lose confidence in her, I ask, did she have a logical reason behind doing so? From what I gather you would presume her actions to be made out of a selfish desire for emotional adoration: if so even if amoral, Seren had reason to do so.

There is no grounds to definitely prove that Seren was irrational or insane at this point. Her reasoning is not exclusively bound to her memories in Prifddinas, so perhaps she had ulterior reasoning/motives behind her actions at this point, for example perhaps she feared that without trust in her, the elves would have no cause to help her in breaking the curse and perhaps some could bring about their own demise, or perhaps she feared that they would hesitate to act on breaking their curse as she did.

2) I have partially responded to this above...
Decisions made in ignorance is not deciding to be ignorant.

3) Better options? We cannot say with such certainty! Seren's memories does not define her reasoning behind her actions with such clarity at this time as I have said above. Regardless, what if the elves refused her help? What if some brought about their own demise with stubborn opposition to Seren? What if Guthix turned a cold shoulder to Seren and the elves? What could Guthix do that Seren couldn't? These are just few of many questions and possible flaws which could arise... I am not saying that I agree with her actions, but I am ignorant of the situation entirely, so cannot conclusively make a rational decision on the matter. And indeed Seren did not set out to cause harm to the elves.
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you." —
Seren

25-Jul-2015 21:07:06 - Last edited on 25-Jul-2015 21:19:05 by Britisher

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