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Britisher

Britisher

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4) Seren "conducted two experiments", both completely different in nature. In both occasions Seren had clear and understandable reasoning which was overshadowed by an ignorance towards the situation at large. So you cannot assume that Seren irrationality repeated the same process again and again when in both situations Seren chose to do so with logical reasoning. The two had very different outcomes, both of which were not linked to eachother. And furthermore, some good did come from the Song of Creation: the Song of Creation effectively allowed the elven race to define itself and live longer. In the end, she was able to effectively enable the elves to live without being confined by a total dependency on her, which limited their scope of exploring the world at large - again, using rational and logical reasoning.
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you."
Seren

25-Jul-2015 21:25:26

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Seren was ignorant (in the sense that she did not hold the knowledge to fully understand and comprehend the situation at hand) as opposed to irrational. We know from her memories that she was in a state of mind to execute rational decisions from her own perspective - which in hindsight was clouded by ignorance, therefore from your own definition of insanity.


She was only ignorant because she chose to be ignorant. She fully knew that beings were forced into loving her. Look see
They loved me from the first, but I did not cause it - they chose to do so! It was not a result of the control Mah instilled in me, at least, I do not believe that to be the case. It feels even more intoxicating, but I remain cogent. I can only surmise that what Mah created artificially has been manifested naturally with these beings. I see now that what Mah did to us was wrong, but this feels so right! Could it be as simple as the right to choose?
Seren came to the conclusion that they did*’t love her because she chose that specific belief. As you can see, and know since this belief turned out to be wrong, there was no logic behind such a belief. No logic, therefore it was chosen irrationally, and obviously very foolishly

(you will have to forgive me for using the extremely common and well-established definition of the word as opposed to a more obscure usage).


Actually I don’t, seeing as I provided you with a definition myself at the beginning of the paragraph... Though to be fair, the other definition works just as well in my own opinion, as I do believe that Seren was seriously mentally ill but this is a game obviously so any neurosis that I think I might find by analyzing character traits could change with an update as jagex aren't likely to stick to planning character traits around neurosis, so I wont debate that as its fallacious.

25-Jul-2015 22:38:17 - Last edited on 25-Jul-2015 22:38:51 by Cthris

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Seren’s rational behind her decision to torture the elves into submission.

There is reasoning behind her action, the problem is it lacks validity. Here is an example case; take claustrophobia, the irrational fear of tight spaces. When such a person goes out of their way to avoid harmless tight spaces, this is still considered irrational actions, even though they do have reasoning; they are scared of tight spaces. This is because their whole rational behind their actions is based on something that is irrational, so it fails in terms of validity.

Seren’s has an irrational attachment to love; she’s addicted to it. When she allows this irrational thought pattern to influence her reasoning, it invalidates them and turns them into irrationality. It also plain out makes no sense. She worries about them not loving her anymore, and then she tortures them… I don’t know about you, but I would assume torturing people is one of the better ways to stop people from loving you. In my opinion, there is definitely something completely wrong with Seren’s line of reasoning.

It's for the best, I keep telling myself. I know what is best for them.

This says to me that Seren doesn't even believe her actions are rational. She has to convincer herself, by mental conditioning, that her choice is correct, when it’s so painfully (Get it, painful, cause she tortured the elves :P ) obvious that she chose the wrong thing.

Not telling Guthix

Again Seren invalidates any reasoning she might have had by allowing her addiction to influence her objective judgement. It was also quite foolish of her not to tell him, especially in the event that he was going to force her to leave the elves. Her not telling Guthix, doesn’t just not help her, it actually goes against her goals, which further shows that her actions lacked rationality, and were quite foolish.

25-Jul-2015 22:40:03

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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It would also be foolish not to mention that there is a great chance that Seren foolishly attacked Zamorak. Seren knew the consequences, showing that if she did do this, it was very foolish and irrational. There is a lot of evidence (She even says it herself, and there are Dark Beast, which we know Seren had access to, that were involved in the God Wars, and Aog, suggest she involved herself too, but that’s a different story) Now I know we do not know for sure if she did anything, but in my mind it shows a lot strong evidence, and is still worthy of mentioning. I wouldn’t if she did*’t say that she did.

Yet...I should not have risen against him.

Now the experiment thing is more of a serious joke, a reference to popular culture, with grim possibilities. I kind of wanted people to make reference other well-known people who are infamous for insane experiments on people. So I won’t really try to defend this point as it supposed to be weak by nature.

25-Jul-2015 22:43:14

Lord Remus

Lord Remus

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You seem to be bothered that Seren will no longer represent your views and ideals, so if that's the case here's my reply:

Many players have joined a God Faction due to the Ideals that these Gods represent and they want their Ideals to be recognisable by the Faction they have joined. But this was before the Gods returned and had proper character development and now that they have, the more stubborn followers refuse to admit their God's faults because they have invested so much time in them or out of a sense of loyalty.

If you are staying with a Faction out of loyalty, carry on if you wish. You're loyalty is admirable and a good quality, but I would advise against blind loyalty or devotion as you may come to regret it later.

If you are staying with a Faction because of it's Ideal, hear me out. As an individual, you are free to follow your own choices, Ideals and beliefs without a God or a Faction... so why don't you?

Gods are usually given credit for mortal achievements, inspirations or ideas. And some people even give the credit of their own hard work to them as well.

You created a Masterpiece musical? A gift from God.
You worked all day in the field? Couldn't have done it without God's help.
You have an working idea to invent a ground-breaking technology then actually make it? It was a vision from God, hence it's that God's idea.
You got prefect grades? Built a 20,000 card pyramid with no glue...?

...You get the idea. The point is, you do NOT need a God to follow what you truly believe in.

All the above is achievable (except maybe the card pyramid), so do something instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you. If you want the world to be of one of Peace and Justice, then strive to bring it about instead of hoping someone else will drop out of the sky and do it for you.

What is the point of anything if you don't do it yourself? There is no meaning if someone does everything for you: No achievement, no self improvement... Nothing.
I'm Godless although I consider myself Independent/Unaligned I "We create ourselves through life. Every victory, every failure and every lesson learned from them... Make us who we are. Once we have lived life to it's end, that is when we realise who we are... or more accurately, who we were."

25-Jul-2015 23:36:53

Lord Remus

Lord Remus

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Just to clarify, even though I am of the Godless Faction I consider myself an "Independent" as there isn't an option for that.

I don't mind the Gods so much as long as they leave the world in one piece and don't force their views or worship on anybody.
I'm Godless although I consider myself Independent/Unaligned I "We create ourselves through life. Every victory, every failure and every lesson learned from them... Make us who we are. Once we have lived life to it's end, that is when we realise who we are... or more accurately, who we were."

25-Jul-2015 23:38:55

iXavior

iXavior

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Ohhhh! Now I understand why she says "..... I can never be whole again" when you use a divination energy on her in the Tower of Voices. Maybe it foreshadows that she is never going to be the same again, even if you refrain from sabotaging her in the new quest :/ Daaaayum dat sux. I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

26-Jul-2015 00:48:28

Britisher

Britisher

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Original message details are unavailable.
She was only ignorant because she chose to be ignorant. She fully knew that beings were forced into loving her.
If we indeed assume that you are correct and that on this occassion Seren was irrational, and instead driven by emotional impulse then this still does not definitely prove Seren's mental state at this period.

"Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity; likewise, not all acts showing indifference toward societal norms are acts of insanity"

Extreme irrationality involves continually acting on a set of beliefs which have no logical basis: at the period in question Seren was ignorant to the situation at large, she had no evidence to definitively "prove" why the elves adored her, this is demonstrated by the following:
"I still sometimes ponder whether they love me of their own volition or they are enamoured by my divine status. I choose to believe the former."

It was an emotion-driven choice that Seren altared Seren's perception of why they loved her: ignorance, she did not act upon this irrationally at any stage, so therefore your point is invalid. And in addition, she accepted the alternative as a possibility.

Original message details are unavailable.
Seren’s has an irrational attachment to love; she’s addicted to it. When she allows this irrational thought pattern to influence her reasoning, it invalidates them and turns them into irrationality. It also plain out makes no sense. She worries about them not loving her anymore, and then she tortures them… I don’t know about you, but I would assume torturing people is one of the better ways to stop people from loving you. In my opinion, there is definitely something completely wrong with Seren’s line of reasoning.
Sorry but this does not invalidate my point.
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you."
Seren

26-Jul-2015 11:26:10 - Last edited on 26-Jul-2015 11:27:34 by Britisher

Britisher

Britisher

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Original message details are unavailable.
This says to me that Seren doesn't even believe her actions are rational.

That is your opinion, to me it demonstrates that from her own perspective Seren believed her actions to be the best solution in dealing with the problem at hand. There is no definitive evidence to take from this quote, so it's irrelevant.

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Again Seren invalidates any reasoning she might have had by allowing her addiction to influence her objective judgement. It was also quite foolish of her not to tell him, especially in the event that he was going to force her to leave the elves. Her not telling Guthix, doesn’t just not help her, it actually goes against her goals, which further shows that her actions lacked rationality, and were quite foolish.
Sorry but this does not invalidate my point.

Original message details are unavailable.
Seren foolishly attacked Zamorak.
At one point I too might have agreed. But no.

The shard of Seren is quite contrary to her memories, so I dismiss this point. Firstly, the shard mentions a desire to go to Gielinor as a means of keeping the Elder Gods asleep indefinitely, this contradicts her memories wherein her desire to go to Gielinor was as a means of curing the elves of their curse. Furthermore it contradicts the fact that in the Dimensions of Disaster universe Seren and the elves did not come to Gielinor as the player did not appear to Haluned, offering hope for Seren that the curse of the elves could be broken.
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you."
Seren

26-Jul-2015 11:27:20

Britisher

Britisher

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Secondly, from her memories we know that upon shutting herself off from her elves she would not act upon her desire to take revenge upon Zamorak. From this point until her shattering we know that Seren remained in the elf lands, continuing to shut herself off from the elves. Also, we know that Guthix allowed Seren to remain on Gielinor - she was the last deity to be removed from the land (apart from April-Fools-Joke-gone-wrong, Brassica Prime): a right that we know from V he only gave to those who did not partake in the God Wars. In the Acceptance memory Seren also states "The petty squabbling of the young gods has awoken him... I am glad he has returned and put a stop to them." The shard's dialogue towards Zamorak could simply be raw emotion, or - as it's out of context - it could refer to a different "promise", perhaps she "rose against him" without armed conflict. So I must dismiss this point entirely.
"Guthix was right, Gielinor is better off without its gods. I will not leave you, not again, but I will not lead you."
Seren

26-Jul-2015 11:27:26 - Last edited on 26-Jul-2015 11:30:19 by Britisher

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