RuneScape Forum Archive | Proposal: remove FMR.

Apr

2012

Spearmint30

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2_Tron said :
Theos said :
... LMods still do need supervision of JMods therefore letting LMods do Forum Moderation Review is futile as JMods still have to double-check what they are doing.
That's double the workload for a single report. Given the original intent was to, at some point, give LMods a JMod account, I feel it would be easy to adapt to the idea that an LMod is acting on behalf of Jagex and therefore their actions or decions could be taken as such.

As they're a sub-contracted community management entity, they could be subject to their own periodic reviews, samplings, or other quality checks to verify their activity meets Jagex standards. It might be easier for Jagex to conduct random audits of LMods at their discretion, allowing the LMods to conduct the reviews of grievances against the FMod team.

Nothing says Jagex has to allow a review process anyhow. There hasn't always been such a system. I won't deny that there are benefits to the system, but there are drawbacks. In any event, what I am getting at is that the line in the sand can easily be moved.

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Spearmint30

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02-Nov-2021 22:16:30

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mrs Ana said :

I wish I could’ve seen the full extent of your original post. I actually had considered Archaeox’s comment before I posted the suggestion, but the reason I did so anyway was because while there are many instances of players being unreasonable, there are also times where there are mature players who are just trying to have a legitimate conversation and being able to defend their post should be a valid action.

Your idea and my idea departs on one fundamental level - that seniority would be in-charge of making the executive decisions. No, when I gave my suggestion, I had the idea that ALL Fmods in their forums would be able to contribute to the deliberation of a case. An Fmod might be a seasoned moderator within the community, but it doesn’t mean that a new Fmod isn’t a seasoned communicator in life.

In fact, some of my posts that have been moderated by an Fmod, then reversed by a Jmod, were moderated by quite a senior Fmod (from memory). I always thought to myself, your actions wouldn’t have been reversed if you had just taken a bit more time to discuss this with me. On top of that, I can think of a number of other Fmods who would not have approached my case like you did. I always wondered, “Man, if only Fmod X responded, he would’ve done it much better.”

That’s why I go back to what I’ve said initially in relation to FMR - that Fmods moderate each other. But I might amend that statement and say that Fmods moderate *together*.

I acknowledge that you guys might already be doing this, and that this may just be my perception and I am only a single player. But perhaps this single player’s perception might be a nudge or at least give pause to re-evaluate your processes.
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03-Nov-2021 01:02:26 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2021 01:05:39 by Chief Elf

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Tuffty said :

While I have seen this process happening, my only issue with this is that the player is communicating with that one particular Fmod. That means that the player’s issues and responses to that issues would be based on the personality, perception, experience, knowledge and bias of that Fmod.

So then fundamentally the player is asking, “Am I having a conversation with an Fmod, or am I having a conversation with Forum Moderation?”

Tying this back to FMR specifically… if let’s say that the new Jmods really don’t participate in Forum Moderation, that essentially leaves a vacuum for moderating Forum Moderation. Rather than having a vacuum, would it not be better to have Fmods deliberate within themselves? Further, if Fmods really do get stuck, they still have Purple CMs to defer to, so there is still some level of third-party impartiality I guess.

—-

The reality might just be that this process is already happening. But I question how much the community receives the impact of such a process if it exists at its current level. So I’m just throwing in the idea again in the hopes that if such a process exists, for the moderation team to consider deepening/re-evaluating/refining it.

I acknowledge that I may be hitting the limits of the conversation because Fmods are gagged by confidentiality. But maybe this might prompt a discussion on what could and could not be confidential.

—-

One of the issues I have with my own suggestion is executing it. It’s difficult to ascertain to what extent an Fmod should go back and forth between their Fmod body and then responding back to the player. But something tells me that this might not actually be too much of an issue as Fmods do know their community and they can get a sense of the type of player approaching for help.
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03-Nov-2021 01:23:48

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Spearmint30 said :
2_Tron said :
Theos said :
... LMods still do need supervision of JMods therefore letting LMods do Forum Moderation Review is futile as JMods still have to double-check what they are doing.
That's double the workload for a single report. Given the original intent was to, at some point, give LMods a JMod account, I feel it would be easy to adapt to the idea that an LMod is acting on behalf of Jagex and therefore their actions or decions could be taken as such.

As they're a sub-contracted community management entity, they could be subject to their own periodic reviews, samplings, or other quality checks to verify their activity meets Jagex standards. It might be easier for Jagex to conduct random audits of LMods at their discretion, allowing the LMods to conduct the reviews of grievances against the FMod team.

Nothing says Jagex has to allow a review process anyhow. There hasn't always been such a system. I won't deny that there are benefits to the system, but there are drawbacks. In any event, what I am getting at is that the line in the sand can easily be moved.

Would you like to speak more into some of these drawbacks, or are they all covered in this thread?

I feel that the benefits outweigh these drawbacks, how about you?

I read your last word as ‘removed’ but it was actually ‘moved’. Jagex doesn’t have to maintain a review process, but doesn’t mean that we don’t need one. As you’ve said, let’s *move* this line in the sand…in the right direction and in the capacity that we can.
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03-Nov-2021 01:51:34

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

2_Tron said :
Theos said :
... LMods still do need supervision of JMods therefore letting LMods do Forum Moderation Review is futile as JMods still have to double-check what they are doing.
That's double the workload for a single report.

While this is ultimately Jagex’s website and we can all say “this is Jagex’s game”, who can guarantee that a Jmod can do a better job at moderating and communicating than an Lmod can?

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03-Nov-2021 01:53:44

Dec

2011

Archaeox

Posts: 53,399 Emerald Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chief Elf said :
While this is ultimately Jagex’s website and we can all say “this is Jagex’s game”, who can guarantee that a Jmod can do a better job at moderating and communicating than an Lmod can?

While this is a valid point, for legal reasons there needs to be JMod involvement at some stage, even if that basically means supervising LMods rather than actually doing the moderating themselves.

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03-Nov-2021 08:13:26

Mrs Ana

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Chief Elf said :
I think that, as evidenced and proven on this thread, Forum Moderators do deliberate on their own when it comes to cases here on the Forums. As I am sure that you are aware, they have their own private sub-forums that may be used for discussions regarding their duties and whatnot. As an addendum, we also have Social Media so that makes it easier for everyone to communicate among themselves.

When I said "seasoned" FMods, I meant to refer to those FMods that have been here for almost 20 years on the team. As far as I can remember, Tuffty and Tren are the two oldest and when my idea came afloat, I suggested that they should be the ones with seniority when it related to reviewing other FMods' actions; however, I agreed on the fact that the suggestion wouldn't have worked due to conflicts, issues, feelings, etc. It's hard to have an FMod review another FMod's action without subjectivity. We'd love for the process to be objective, but if FMods did review one another, it'd be extremely hard to keep subjectivity out of the equation. Personally, I wouldn't agree with a process where FMods are involved in reviewing their own actions. It just doesn't make sense. The cons outweigh the pros, if any.

I enjoy good communication Throughout the history of the RSOFs, specifically when Mod Poppy was in charge, she always mentioned that education goes a long way in teaching someone how to learn something and how not to make the same mistake again. For example, if someone posts in the wrong sub-forum, it'd be ideal to help the person first and then educate them on the fact that their thread would have been better suited somewhere else for better reception. For me, this is all about communication and I do think that I commended Mod Kari's responses in FMR within a thread that was posted here once.

03-Nov-2021 14:07:26 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2021 14:10:33 by Mrs Ana

Mrs Ana

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Archaeox said :
While this is a valid point, for legal reasons there needs to be JMod involvement at some stage, even if that basically means supervising LMods rather than actually doing the moderating themselves. I was going to say something similar to this, but, as always, Archaeox is spot on with this comment.

03-Nov-2021 14:08:07

Oct

2017

Corder

Posts: 27,892 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mrs Ana said :
When I said "seasoned" FMods, I meant to refer to those FMods that have been here for almost 20 years on the team. As far as I can remember, Tuffty and Tren are the two oldest and when my idea came afloat, I suggested that they should be the ones with seniority when it related to reviewing other FMods' actions; however, I agreed on the fact that the suggestion wouldn't have worked due to conflicts, issues, feelings, etc. It's hard to have an FMod review another FMod's action without subjectivity. We'd love for the process to be objective, but if FMods did review one another, it'd be extremely hard to keep subjectivity out of the equation. Personally, I wouldn't agree with a process where FMods are involved in reviewing their own actions. It just doesn't make sense. The cons outweigh the pros, if any. Yep that probably wouldn't work. My guess is they do share feedback with eachother i.e when someone performs a questionable action (especially when CM is unavailable) but this is probably done privately for the most part.
If the forums were community-led, it would make more sense for FMod team to have internal divisions where some has authority over others, but that just won't happen with the current system I don't think. Life is like a camera: Just focus on what's important, capture the good times, develop from the negatives, and if things don't work out, take another shot !

03-Nov-2021 14:35:13

Mrs Ana

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Corder said :
Yep that probably wouldn't work. My guess is they do share feedback with eachother i.e when someone performs a questionable action (especially when CM is unavailable) but this is probably done privately for the most part.
If the forums were community-led, it would make more sense for FMod team to have internal divisions where some has authority over others, but that just won't happen with the current system I don't think. Yea, it wouldn't work. I just think it doesn't make sense that FMods moderate each other while following the rules and guidelines set forth by Jagex. So, since Jagex are responsibly for them and are the ones that wrote the rules/guidelines, I think that it should stay the way it is now, i.e., having members of Community Management take care of FMR and the FMod team as a whole. They are the ones most qualified to equitably interpret their own guidelines/rules.

The only exception to this would be the LMods/CMs if they eventually get their golden accounts.

03-Nov-2021 14:43:16