RuneScape Forum Archive | Proposal: remove FMR.

Aug

2008

Theos

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There's been some really good points posted on the past few pages (and really, throughout this entire thread).

To sum up my thoughts, I think the LMods/CM Mods have proven themselves. I think it is a lot more efficient, and optimal for Jagex to either give them J-Mod accounts or upgrade the permissions of the LMod accounts so they can essentially do all of the forum tasks a Community Management J-Mod would normally work on. I think Mrs Ana pointed out that CM Mods/LMods are already managing the Community@Jagex inbox.

As Spearmint eluded to, they can randomly audit or check on the actions of these CM Mods and FMods. This would allow the Fmods and CM Mods to manage the forums with little JMod attention needed. Why wouldn't Jagex do this, to make their jobs easier and optimize the independence of these teams which already exist? There hasn't always been an F-Mod review process, and I think as Spearmint mentioned Jagex can decide however they want these to handle with whatever escalation systems they do optimal (if any at all).

A longer term, more sustainable system would be one which requires very little Jagex oversight with their shift in focus to Twitter, Discord, and other social media platforms. Over the years, we've seen a reduction in forum activity and presence from Jagex. Rather than speculating or going in the direction for why that's happening (evolution of social media, company focus/direction, etc), I think it is apparent that there's less time being allocated toward the forums.

Why wouldn't Jagex want to reduce their forum responsibilities and management, and give the CM/LMods the proper tools they need for that role to reach its full potential? I'm shocked it has already been 3 years and the CM Mods/LMods still haven't been given these tools. It would make Jagex's jobs much easier, and minimize their need to be involved in moderation except for random audits/checks or rarer cases involving higher escalations.

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03-Nov-2021 17:39:13

Stoat King

Posts: 5,075 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

^ I couldnt disagree more.

The reason it has taken so long is obvious. It will still be the case that Jagex are incapable of implementing this on the first of never.
There is no backburner so far back that it takes three years to sort out when its costing you money. They are incapable of implementing it. Its that simple.

And given this, the primary (and stated) reason they were employed in the first place is impossible - why are they still here?

"I think the LMods/CM Mods have proven themselves". From my point of view, they have only proven their bad faith.
They are inferior in every way to the FMods.
We all know the FMods. Love em or hate em, they have put the time in.
The LMods/CM Mods are know-nothing internet randos of the type you might find yourself arguing with on reddit. Except these randos have privileges. Great.

Lets not forget that their 'services', such as they are, cost Jagex money.
Its the worst possible outcome. Jagex are literally forking out for a downgrade.
A meaningless and inferior extra layer of bureaucracy. If they were removed of then the forums would be a better place imo. Only the bad memory would remain, which exactly what will happen when the people with the purse-strings realize the idiocy of the current situation.

Frankly, I am so unimpressed/revolted with the LMods/CM Mods that, for once, I am pleased at the level of Jagex incompetence that led to the reason for them being here in the first place being moot. It was a terrible idea in the first place. Even worse than employing fanboys to the CM team.

03-Nov-2021 18:41:06

CM Nick

Local Moderator Posts: 9,140 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Stoat King said :

"I think the LMods/CM Mods have proven themselves". From my point of view, they have only proven their bad faith.

Could you please elaborate on my "Bad Faith"? I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

Stoat King said :
Lets not forget that their 'services', such as they are, cost Jagex money.

Indeed they do, and after three years they continue to, and Jagex continues to be happy with our work here on the RSOF and continues to renew our contract yearly, so I'm not sure what the issue is here if Jagex don't have an issue with continuing to pay to keep us around? I'm sure the cost of two CMs for the RSOF isn't going to make or break them by any means.

Stoat King said :
The LMods/CM Mods are know-nothing internet randos of the type you might find yourself arguing with on reddit. Except these randos have privileges. Great. 

I have two degrees, 8 years of Community Management experience and have been playing RuneScape for almost 15 years. I would say I at least know a bit.

Usually I wouldn't bite on a post like this but... I mean, you can voice your dislike the CM/LMod team and obviously you're entitled to do that, but a lot of what you've pointed out doesn't really have anything to do with the situation. If you have a personal dislike for us, that's fine, but your disagreement over how Jagex spends their money, or trying to dispute the experience I have aren't really relevant to the situation. This seems like it's something personal that you're trying to spin into something else. If you don't like me, that's obviously your prerogative, but trying to insinuate we're inept or draining Jagex of money something is taking it a bit far. Community Manager for Jagex

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03-Nov-2021 18:55:16 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2021 19:05:56 by CM Nick

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Archaeox said :
Chief Elf said :
While this is ultimately Jagex’s website and we can all say “this is Jagex’s game”, who can guarantee that a Jmod can do a better job at moderating and communicating than an Lmod can?

While this is a valid point, for legal reasons there needs to be JMod involvement at some stage, even if that basically means supervising LMods rather than actually doing the moderating themselves.

Yes this I agree and I don’t actually ever imagined this not happening, never did.
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04-Nov-2021 01:21:31 - Last edited on 04-Nov-2021 02:10:29 by Chief Elf

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

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Mrs Ana said :

Actually, and again, my suggestion was different from yours fundamentally because I don’t believe that a seasoned mod should be the final adjudicators for a case. Since you touched on communication which was a really good point, I’ll link it back to communication - that a seasoned moderator does not make themselves any better of a communicator than the youngest moderator. Remember, that outside of this game, we don’t know what life experiences and education an individual has. The youngest moderator may actually be better at handling a community than the most seasoned forum moderator.

To clarify with my suggestion and going back to FMR. The suggestion was more of “if all else fails” scenario and that the forums were truly abandoned. At this point, since CM Nick is still present, we at least have a purple moderator to defer to. No one can tell what’s to happen in the future. So with my suggestion, it isn’t really a case of one moderator vs another moderator. I imagined it as different moderators chiming in to a thread like “Hey guys… there’s this case.. whatre your thoughts on best approaching it?” And then the moderator will formulate a response based on that. In this case, even the offending moderator can reverse their own actions.

…

At this stage, I do think I agree with you.. given the resources that we have it might not be necessary. This might already be occurring just that the impact hasn’t been so significantly felt. However, you brought up communication and let’s hold onto that because it is a good point, very relevant to this conversation.

..

Your other points I disagree a bit more. It does make sense to review their own actions (not necessarily in a formal sense). It provides a learning opportunity to go “hold on, is there some way I can approach this more effectively… what do others think?”

[….]
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04-Nov-2021 01:32:39 - Last edited on 04-Nov-2021 02:08:42 by Chief Elf

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

[…]

Since we’re not at that stage yet, the community inbox seems to be the strongest suggestion.

Mrs Ana said :

Actually, the more I think about how you guys feel about Fmods, the more I reflect on my own. Are my expectations maybe too high? The reason I had this suggestion in the first place was because this process is what tends to happen in real life. Usually when you bring something up to higher management to consider, they might deliberate within themselves, alter their decisions or at least communicate a response. But maybe the gaming landscape, this game’s history, and the current climate, suggest that such a process might not be as effective as I believe.

So I’ll go back to the community inbox suggestion.
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04-Nov-2021 01:43:13

Apr

2017

Chief Elf

Posts: 5,115 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Stoat King said :

Unfortunately Stoat, I might have to disagree with you here. As it is your point of view, here is mine - I think the CMs have done a sterling job. The fact that one still remains and has remained influential/effective is just testament to that. This contrasts with the absent illuminating gold that we expect to see.

As I’m reading the rest of your statement.. some of the things you’ve said just does not seem to be fair. It sounds like you’ve had an experience with them in the past and some of the things you’ve said sound quite personal.

I’m wondering if we want to make the best out of a situation, that you should channel some of that energy into making your own thread to create some constructive and fair feedback. Then you can have a sense of whether the community agrees with you or not.

Going back to CM, I think we’d appreciate them coming onboard and being the main function of the review process. Since Jagex isn’t present enough as we’d like, Jagex will still oversee the entire process.
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04-Nov-2021 02:04:33 - Last edited on 04-Nov-2021 02:06:43 by Chief Elf

Mrs Ana

Posts: 8,998 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chief Elf said :
When I shared my suggestion, I focused on "seasoned" FMods due to the fact that they have been here longer than most, if not, all members of the Community Management team. This implies that they have gone through different sets of Forum Curators and have experienced all sorts of rules and guidelines changes. That is what I was trying to get at when I used the word "seasoned". I didn't mean that they are better than newer Forum Moderators. I simply wanted to convey that they are more experienced and have gone through intensive training and fundamental changes.

Just for historical reference: If I am not mistaken, the only other former member of Community Management -- who was once responsible for Forum Moderators -- who is still working at Jagex is Mod Stevew. He has been there since 2007 and is currently a Player Support Manager. Most FMods have outlived every member of Community Management.

I think that your suggestion is, in a way, already carried out by the FMods. As it has been mentioned, FMods do not moderate over other FMods, except on extreme cases/scenarios. For example, Tuffty forwarded ( post ) Archaeox's report to the FMod who actioned the thread in the first place. The FMod in question then intervened and dealt with the report accordingly: post . THIS is the kind of communication that I love.

Additionally, as we have seen here, they do elaborate certain reports and cases among themselves privately. I think this has always been the case and this is welcome because they are asking for someone else's POV to see if it goes along with theirs or if something ought to be changed. I think that FMods already provide feedback to each other through privately channels, as it should be the case.

[...]

04-Nov-2021 14:24:26

Mrs Ana

Posts: 8,998 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chief Elf said :
I think that you and I may be confusing our suggestions and/or thoughts regarding FMods and FMR. Let's see if I may clarify my stance a bit better:

" It does make sense to review their own actions (not necessarily in a formal sense). It provides a learning opportunity to go “hold on, is there some way I can approach this more effectively… what do others think?” "

To answer your comment above, as I said on my aforementioned post, FMods DO somehow review their own actions by sharing with other FMods what action(s) they are about to take or what action(s) was already taken. This has always been the case throughout the years. It has become easier to carry out due to the accessibility that Social Media provides nowadays. In prior times, I assume that it was only possible to be done through their private sub-forum and/or in-game.

As evidenced on my example above, a FMod decided to nudge their colleague about a report regarding a thread that was looked at by that specific FMod. This has always been the case because they don't overstep on someone else's action(s) unless it's necessary to do so, on extreme cases. It's like when an FMod posts on a thread and the thread wasn't moved, for example. Then, the next FMod believes that since the first FMod posted and no action was taken, the second FMod will, most likely, leave any moderation (depending on the situation, of course) to the first FMod or FMods that posted prior to them. This is what I have seen throughout my tenure here.

Personally, I do not have a problem with FMods asking other FMods for advice/opinions when it comes to their duties. This has always been the case. It's like when a newer P-Mod goes to a P-Mod Mentor for advice/opinions regarding the rules/guidelines/reports/etc. This is totally fine with me because in a way, it doesn't involve the regular player. It involves the FMods and how they approach a situation.

[...]

04-Nov-2021 14:24:37

Mrs Ana

Posts: 8,998 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chief Elf said :
Now, what I don't agree and wouldn't agree with is having FMods look at my reports against them and then having FMods themselves review a report that I or someone else made against a colleague of theirs. As you may know, feelings and other issues would definitely arise from this. You may see my complete thoughts here , here and here since I think that repeating them would be unnecessary.

===
Chief Elf said :
It's what tends to happen in real life and in other scenarios when someone has concerns about actions taken against them. I agree with you on that; however, since Jagex owns these Forums and since the rules/guidelines were written by them, I find it odd to have FMods make decisions on their own actions when those decisions were made, pressumably, following the guidelines/rules that were set forth by Jagex. Given that fact, I think FMods shouldn't have a say in the process of reviewing their own actions . Bias, subjectivity, etc., are written all over this.

FMR should always be reviewed by a member of Jagex, more specifically, a Community Management member, as shared by Mod Kari here . Would you be all right if the FMod who took an action you disagreed with is the same FMod reviewing your report? If it isn't the same one, it will be a colleague of theirs. It just doesn't make sense when I read that. Your mind tells you right away that the review process may not be objective but rather subjective. This is what I am trying to avoid.

Deliberation among themselves in a private setting is fine to me. What I do not concur with is having a member of the team that I am reporting to Jagex review the same report that I am making against them. I don't think it'd be a fair assessment.

04-Nov-2021 14:24:43 - Last edited on 04-Nov-2021 14:32:17 by Mrs Ana