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Roddy Piper
Jan Member 2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Generalizing is OK, but this is a specific problem on a specific forum. One that never gets corrected. Points 1,2 and 3 on the opening post. Put together that's the issue.

There is more, the behavior of 2 trolls in particular is far worse than folks realize.

And yes, it is simply a matter of someone telling them to stop it. No punishment needed, other than to shut down their scheme. Who will do that?

09-Sep-2023 14:12:13 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2023 14:13:17 by Roddy Piper

Miu

Miu

Posts: 16,950 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Abby Taylor said :
Miu said :
I agree that being able to call a troll a troll, in order to keep a thread from veering off-topic, should be allowed. Especially when mods don't action said trolls.

However, the other points in your thread contradict themselves. The forums are not very strict and are the least strict they've ever been.


I just massively disagree here. I think that the rules are not strict when it concerns trolls. but they are overly strict against innocent users or frustrated users.

I see a lot of posts hidden and warnings given for players simply voicing concerns or frustrations.


It's not a rule issue, it's an enforcement issue. If you change the rules the trolls will just skirt the lines in a different way and the problem remains.
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09-Sep-2023 18:50:43

Abby Taylor
Nov Member 2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Seasons Past

"Their job is to punish people who break rules. Trolls provoke people into breaking rules."

It is against the rules to provoke others into breaking the rules. So why aren't they being punished?

"Now you just need to ban their account on Snapchat, Reddit, Twitter, Google, Facebook, Craigslist, and LinkedIn, and get them fired from their workplace and sent to prison."

This slippery slope is actually insane. You can ban a person from a video game forum to minimize their annoying behavior on that forum specifically, I don't see an issue.

I don't know what your obsession with and fixation on the real world, and comparing the forums to real behavior.

"People do bad things in the real world so they should be allowed to do them on the runescape forums."


This is your logic basically and it's fallacious.

"Punishment is not an effective deterrent to those who actively seek to take advantage of others, nor is it ultimately effective in preventing further harm."

This is just not true.
The existence of LAWS, has greatly diminished CRIME.

Your post is just... I don't know what to say, it's wildly wrong.
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10-Sep-2023 01:00:41

Abby Taylor
Nov Member 2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@MIU

"If you change the rules the trolls will just skirt the lines in a different way and the problem remains."

Unfortunately this is true. But yes, provoking people is against the rules as it stands, and it appears that the moderators do not act against these users ever.

I would point out that skirting around rules can just end up in punishment anyway.
Like if you think about Law in the real world, it's not like you can just kill somebody in a different way and get away with it.

Because moderators are technically the Judge, Jury, and Executioner, It's actually up to their digression to interpret the rules.
They can simply decide that a person is breaking a rule anyway, even if they are "skirting the line" and punish them.
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10-Sep-2023 01:03:07 - Last edited on 10-Sep-2023 01:05:48 by Abby Taylor

Seasons Past

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Abby Taylor said :
@MIU

"If you change the rules the trolls will just skirt the lines in a different way and the problem remains."

Unfortunately this is true. But yes, provoking people is against the rules as it stands, and it appears that the moderators do not act against these users ever.

I would point out that skirting around rules can just end up in punishment anyway.
Like if you think about Law in the real world, it's not like you can just kill somebody in a different way and get away with it.

Because moderators are technically the Judge, Jury, and Executioner, It's actually up to their digression to interpret the rules.
They can simply decide that a person is breaking a rule anyway, even if they are "skirting the line" and punish them.
I agree that individual judgement is more significant than the rules themselves. Mods choose whether to enforce rules, which ones to enforce, and how to enforce them. The same goes for real world courts and legal systems.

I'm extrapolating this forum to the real world because I don't see the issues in here as being fundamentally separate from "real" interactions. That's why I don't agree with the interventionist approach. Entrusting someone else with more power to always act in our best interest is, at best, a recipe for disappointment.

While I understand you disagree on this, I would never give more power to someone else who is already in a position of power. People who are supposed to protect us can do much more damage than some random troll, because they're closer and have more resources.
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11-Sep-2023 04:14:29

Seasons Past

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Abby Taylor said :
@Seasons Past

"Their job is to punish people who break rules. Trolls provoke people into breaking rules."

It is against the rules to provoke others into breaking the rules. So why aren't they being punished?

"Now you just need to ban their account on Snapchat, Reddit, Twitter, Google, Facebook, Craigslist, and LinkedIn, and get them fired from their workplace and sent to prison."

This slippery slope is actually insane. You can ban a person from a video game forum to minimize their annoying behavior on that forum specifically, I don't see an issue.

I don't know what your obsession with and fixation on the real world, and comparing the forums to real behavior.

"People do bad things in the real world so they should be allowed to do them on the runescape forums."


This is your logic basically and it's fallacious.

"Punishment is not an effective deterrent to those who actively seek to take advantage of others, nor is it ultimately effective in preventing further harm."

This is just not true.
The existence of LAWS, has greatly diminished CRIME.

Your post is just... I don't know what to say, it's wildly wrong.
There are some inconsistencies here. In your opening post, you argued in favor of more open-ended moderation with less reliance on rules.

The slippery slope is wanting to completely remove people you find annoying. This is not a realistic solution and is often disproportionate to the actual damage caused. Selective application of the law/rules is the slippery slope.
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11-Sep-2023 04:37:51

Abby Taylor
Nov Member 2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Seasons Past

I only care about the rules in that they make this forum a better place for as many users to voice their opinions and have discussions.

if a rule is making the forums worse, or it's application is not working then I don't want it.
I'm a utilitarian or a consequentialist, I only care about the result, not the principle.

That said, is a user is just being annoying it's whatever.

But there is a difference between being "annoying" and being a baiting troll for literally years on end, being well known for it, and having such a negative impact on the forums that it makes people not want to come here.
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11-Sep-2023 19:15:15

Seasons Past

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Abby Taylor said :
@Seasons Past

I only care about the rules in that they make this forum a better place for as many users to voice their opinions and have discussions.

if a rule is making the forums worse, or it's application is not working then I don't want it.
I'm a utilitarian or a consequentialist, I only care about the result, not the principle.

That said, is a user is just being annoying it's whatever.

But there is a difference between being "annoying" and being a baiting troll for literally years on end, being well known for it, and having such a negative impact on the forums that it makes people not want to come here.
I see the merit of your points. It should be about what's effective to achieve the desired result. I got carried away and made this into a whole philosophical debate.
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12-Sep-2023 15:19:53

Roddy Piper
Jan Member 2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Everything is easier if you consider intentions. The forum code of conduct says:

Here on the RuneScape forums, we've all come to have fun and enjoy ourselves. For most forumers, what you can and can't say should be common sense - be respectful of others,don't break the Rules of RuneScape and you'll be fine.


The intention is very clear. Where it falls apart is below that. The wording of specific points allows for the poor behavior.

Somehow mockery and belittlement have slipped through the cracks, as well as generally troublesome behavior.

Take note of how people enter a thread. Consider the intention and validity of it. Notice where trouble begins, and other posters are caught up in it. Most users are just doing their thing and want to be allowed to post their opinions. The interactions are obviously unwanted and unintended.

Ideally players would and could seek help from moderation, but the mods seems stuck with loopholes and past rulings. The whole idea of probing the rules to see what is allowed so you can behave poorly and victimize others is absurd.

12-Sep-2023 17:00:47

Tuffty
Jan
fmod Member
2003

Tuffty

Forum Moderator Posts: 152,160 Ruby Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Roddy Piper said :
The intention is very clear. Where it falls apart is below that. The wording of specific points allows for the poor behavior.

Somehow mockery and belittlement have slipped through the cracks, as well as generally troublesome behavior.

Take note of how people enter a thread. Consider the intention and validity of it. Notice where trouble begins, and other posters are caught up in it. Most users are just doing their thing and want to be allowed to post their opinions. The interactions are obviously unwanted and unintended.

Ideally players would and could seek help from moderation, but the mods seems stuck with loopholes and past rulings. The whole idea of probing the rules to see what is allowed so you can behave poorly and victimize others is absurd.


I'm just spitballing here but " mockery and belittlement " would fall under Flaming even if it's mild. Remember it's Context that matters. Also remember it can be reported if you feel it's wrong to the Forum Help thread. Each report is dealt with on a case by case basis. Now say a F-Mod feels the report is a good 1 and has a problem with the post or posts posted then He/She will seek backup that means asking another F-Mod or Mods for their opinion about an issue. I know I've had to ask for back up and didn't take long at all as we have ways to make contact.

As for someone " Probing " the rules yes I agree fully that this is often done. You have to remember the Community are smart and so are the Forum Mods and can spot it a mile away. Usually action is taken but on the rare accurance none is taken the OP or someone with a vested interest in the thread or topic can ask via the Forum Help thread why no action was taken. It will be investigated by a F-Mod and reply on Forum Help left. This has now replaced the Forum Mod Review thread reviews.

Still reading the thread with interest. ;)
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13-Sep-2023 11:32:32

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