RuneScape Forum Archive | Suggested Forum rule changes

Nov

2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Tuffty

" The F-Mods know the main trolls honest we do and see them daily. At times when they are reported they have posts removed and a warning issued to get back on topic etc. It does happen."

I am skeptical of this claim, but because we can't name and shame there is no way for me to tell you exactly why I think you are mistaken on this.
Well played I suppose.

"The best way to deal with trolls though is by ignoring when they post and not reply back to them."

You mentioned this before, but you are serious?
I see you have 151k posts, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have used the internet for quite a few years, and that you understand human psychology even a little bit.

Perhaps because I went to school for sociology, I am wrongly assuming people know what I know about it.

Humans behave in surprisingly predictable ways, especially large groups of people over time.
Companies who run large social media websites also recognize patterns in user behavior, and that's why a block feature is included on nearly EVERY reputable website on the internet.
Because the human animal is confrontational and emotional, and disagreements can rarely be settled amicably.

The runescape community is not exactly a leader in good mental health either...

200m Woodcutting: 08/08/2021

Completionist: 09/10/2021

08-Sep-2023 19:16:46

Jan

2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Changing the rules would only make their behavior worse. Already they use the rules against everyone else. It's not even a matter of rules.

It's a matter of allowing a small number of users to steamroll anyone who gets in their way, with apparent help from the moderators.

Constant mockery and belittlement, baiting. Targeting users to turn their words into some twisted crossword puzzle. False reports of anything they can think of. Somehow they get acted on?

That's the optics, and if you don't believe it, poll it.

What to do? Actually recognize the tactics being employed, recognize the number of users who have fallen for the trap, and recognize that it can be changed at any moment.

Not even by banning anyone. Tell them to stop that specific behavior. It can't come from a player, because they would also just get reported.

That's part of what it means to be a troll, never correcting the behavior.

Everyone else seems to have no real problem getting along. Imagine that.

09-Sep-2023 02:36:50

Nov

2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

User A: Has an opinion and makes a thread about it.

User B: Trolls them and makes provoking comments.

User A: "Hey, you're trolling! stop it."

-Forum Mod swoops in to rescue the troll and remind User A not to make off-topic posts!-
-Forum Mod doesn't give User B a warning or any punishment-

All in a days work.
You see the problem here right?

200m Woodcutting: 08/08/2021

Completionist: 09/10/2021

09-Sep-2023 02:45:49 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2023 02:48:43 by Abby Taylor

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

As someone who has been involved in toxic behavior both ways, calling out a troll does not make the behavior stop. It incentivizes the perpetrator to escalate the behavior. The purpose is to solicit a reaction. To a troll, any reaction is better than no reaction. Therefore, by responding, the trolled person plays into the troll's hands and thus makes the problem worse despite admirable intentions.

The bait is the fact that the behavior is perceived as immoral. Think of it not in terms of morality but in terms of cause and effect. If I respond to User B, my thread gets trashed. Therefore, it is in my interest as User A to ignore User B. By ignoring the provocation, User A denies user B the opportunity to exercise social/psychological power. By demonstrating that user B's tactics are useless against the target, the joke is turned on user B, who has only succeeded in wasting not their opponent's time but their own.

I would controversially argue that making an abuser infamous is not effective in stopping the behavior. This is because it gives the perpetrator more power. You have to deny them the satisfaction of having power over other people.

A rule of thumb is to never reveal anything you wouldn't want to be used against you. Whenever I feel inclined to express what I think or how I feel about something, I anticipate that I will be harrassed and trolled - both on- and offline. Even something as benign as an opinion on an online game forum can be used as a weapon. It sounds paranoid, but this is how abuse works. Everything is a weapon.

Remember dying in the Wilderness?

"Don't bring anything you're not prepared to lose." Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

09-Sep-2023 03:45:28 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2023 03:53:57 by Seasons Past

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Here are a couple more examples:

Airplanes
"Secure your [lifesaving oxygen] mask before assisting others."

US law enforcement (not known for tolerance and compassion)
"Everything you say can and will be used against you."

The world is inherently dangerous. We can't save everyone who runs out of air or who gets arrested, regardless of the cause. In order to defend oneself from inescapable realities (such as the asphyxiation and extrajudicial execution referenced above), it is necessary to prioritize one's individual security above all else. This requires letting go of the idealistic belief that we can express ourselves freely without retribution by hostile actors. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

09-Sep-2023 04:06:36

Jan

2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

This isn't a typical situation. It's easier to ignore the trolls when there is a lot of activity. It has also been like this for years. There are thousands of players who have fallen into the trap. It's like a built-in feature of the forum.

Trolls are highly skilled in avoiding moderation while helpfully reporting anyone who responds to them in an unfavorable way.

This behavior generally dominates the forum. Even putting in the effort to fill every hole in a post is not good enough. Trolls want their foot in the door and the trap is sprung.

An important thing to realize when dealing with them is you have no obligation to explain yourself, to repeat yourself, or to give credit for any point they try to make. Assuming they have a point, other than to automatically disagree with some part of a post.

09-Sep-2023 04:24:52

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Roddy Piper said :
This isn't a typical situation. It's easier to ignore the trolls when there is a lot of activity. It has also been like this for years. There are thousands of players who have fallen into the trap. It's like a built-in feature of the forum.

Trolls are highly skilled in avoiding moderation while helpfully reporting anyone who responds to them in an unfavorable way.

This behavior generally dominates the forum. Even putting in the effort to fill every hole in a post is not good enough. Trolls want their foot in the door and the trap is sprung.

An important thing to realize when dealing with them is you have no obligation to explain yourself, to repeat yourself, or to give credit for any point they try to make. Assuming they have a point, other than to automatically disagree with some part of a post. I wasn't sure if you were responding to me at first because I agree with almost everything you said. I was going to a logical extreme with the examples for the purpose of illustration.

I think your last point - responding (or choosing not to respond) to a point rather than a person - is critical. If someone isn't offering meaningful contribution, it doesn't matter whether they're intentionally being disruptive. Being able to withdraw personal investment is key.

I would argue that trolling and other forms of abuse are a built-in hazard of any interaction, but not all interactions are equal. I think it's actually easier to deal with trolls when there is less activity. With less interaction, there is less ammunition and therefore less damage and less incentive to troll.

While educating people about harassment is necessary, I question whether a troll's playhouse (i.e. any mass communication setting) is an effective place for learning to occur. I agree that playing whack-a-troll with rules is a losing strategy. That's why I favor demonstrating by example how to starve trolls, rather than continuing to feed them. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

09-Sep-2023 06:27:10 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2023 06:41:18 by Seasons Past

Nov

2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Seasons past

I just don't understand why the forum moderators can't just do their jobs properly and acknowledge this annoying behavior and start punishing them for it.

or add a block feature.

Why does the Runescape forum have to just be perpetually shitty and awful because of this particular type of behavior?
You realize teaching people to deal with trolls is a losing strategy because there will always be new users coming here who need to be educated, there is always "fresh meat" so to speak to feed to trolls.

It would just be 100% effective if moderators would acknowledge the behavior and punish it accordingly.
Trolls can't troll if they keep getting banned, and for 95% of them it's not worth making accounts over and over.

We all know that choosing to ignore somebody who is being annoying is a non option, this advice is ignorant of actual psychology and human behavior. We do not all have the patience of shaolin monks lmfao.
Every time I see somebody suggest this I want to laugh in their face, you are telling a joke.

200m Woodcutting: 08/08/2021

Completionist: 09/10/2021

09-Sep-2023 07:00:43

Nov

2019

Abby Taylor

Posts: 2,206 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"A rule of thumb is to never reveal anything you wouldn't want to be used against you. Whenever I feel inclined to express what I think or how I feel about something, I anticipate that I will be harrassed and trolled - both on- and offline. Even something as benign as an opinion on an online game forum can be used as a weapon. It sounds paranoid, but this is how abuse works. Everything is a weapon."

You said not to let people have power over you, but this is letting them have ultimate control.

When you can't even speak your mind or share your thoughts without fear of it being used against you as a weapon... it's sad.

200m Woodcutting: 08/08/2021

Completionist: 09/10/2021

09-Sep-2023 07:04:02 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2023 07:04:29 by Abby Taylor

Seasons Past

Posts: 555 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Abby Taylor said :
@Seasons past

I just don't understand why the forum moderators can't just do their jobs properly and acknowledge this annoying behavior and start punishing them for it. Their job is not to punish people who deserve it. Their job is to punish people who break rules. Trolls provoke people into breaking rules. When rules are broken, it's a moderator's job to punish someone. If you think there is a symbiotic relationship between trolls/abusers and authorities who enact punishment, you're right.
Abby Taylor said :
Why does the Runescape forum have to just be perpetually shitty and awful because of this particular type of behavior? Because it's not just the Runescape forum; the rest of the world is also like that.
Abby Taylor said :
It would just be 100% effective if moderators would acknowledge the behavior and punish it accordingly.
Trolls can't troll if they keep getting banned, and for 95% of them it's not worth making accounts over and over. Let's say you catch a prolific troll and ban them. It's not worth making accounts over and over, so they stop posting on the forums. Now you just need to ban their account on Snapchat, Reddit, Twitter, Google, Facebook, Craigslist, and LinkedIn, and get them fired from their workplace and sent to prison.

Danger exists. It's simply not feasible to entirely remove every single potentially dangerous person from society, however tempting it may be to try. However, punishing people for crimes does create a compelling incentive and opportunity for anyone to exploit the rules for personal gain - such as by misusing moderation systems to unfairly target and harass legitimate participants.

Punishment is not an effective deterrent to those who actively seek to take advantage of others, nor is it ultimately effective in preventing further harm. Spirit of Forinthry ~ Runecrafting: Magic Armour ~ F2P Extensions ~ Dragon Slayer improvements ~ New Player Experience

09-Sep-2023 08:10:42

Forums

Suggested Forum rule changes