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Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Lumine said :
Nick, are you saying that being an egalitarian isn't a good thing? I'm wondering what sort of definition you have for the word 'egalitarian' that you think it isn't. Not least because you claimed to be leftish once when we were PMing. When is equality not desirable? Don't be absurd, he was obviously responding to the equivalence drawn between egalitarianism and social justice. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Nov-2017 17:46:35

Reactionary

Reactionary

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Lumine said :
When is equality not desirable?
When the egalitarian state realises that equality is not compatible with liberty due to human nature and so embarks on a crusade to force it on the population through various aggressive and increasingly totalitarian means.

The fact that you assume from the get-go that your radical (and it is, compared to the rest of all human history, however normal it's considered now) opinion is all-encompassingly perfect and good in every single instance is indicative of the problem and the lengths that egalitarians will go to to achieve their goal, surely
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25-Nov-2017 00:14:00 - Last edited on 25-Nov-2017 00:27:11 by Reactionary

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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You know, not everyone who supports the left and goes for equality is a totalitarian who tries to push majorities down and turn developed countries into George Orwell's 1984. That's the kind of behaviour that goes against the idea of equality. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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25-Nov-2017 08:52:16

Lumine

Lumine

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Team Skull said :
Lumine said :
Nick, are you saying that being an egalitarian isn't a good thing? I'm wondering what sort of definition you have for the word 'egalitarian' that you think it isn't. Not least because you claimed to be leftish once when we were PMing. When is equality not desirable?

I would like to think there is a very clear difference between "wanting equality" and "wanting preferential treatment".

So there is. But justice means things are fair. So-called social justice that doesn't bring about fairness is failed social justice, or people misusing the quite reasonable aim for increased equity to promote inequity.

In which case it doesn't deserve the label of justice at all. That doesn't mean people shouldn't keep trying to make things *actually* fairer.
Lumine
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29-Nov-2017 03:51:23

Lumine

Lumine

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Raleirosen said :
Lumine said :
Nick, are you saying that being an egalitarian isn't a good thing? I'm wondering what sort of definition you have for the word 'egalitarian' that you think it isn't. Not least because you claimed to be leftish once when we were PMing. When is equality not desirable? Don't be absurd, he was obviously responding to the equivalence drawn between egalitarianism and social justice.

Well, they're *supposed* to be the same. Where they're not the same, they're failing in being actual justice, as I said just before. The society needs more real justice, not to give up on seeking it.
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29-Nov-2017 03:53:33

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Lumine said :
Well, they're *supposed* to be the same. Where they're not the same, they're failing in being actual justice, as I said just before. The society needs more real justice, not to give up on seeking it. Ah, in that case what matters is the distinction between what is meant by social justice (and if it's considered synonymous, egalitarianism) and the beliefs/actions of the movement that purportedly seeks it -- which is what was laughable about the original comparison, I think. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

29-Nov-2017 04:03:25 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2017 04:04:30 by Raleirosen

Lumine

Lumine

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Reactionary said :
Lumine said :
When is equality not desirable?
When the egalitarian state realises that equality is not compatible with liberty due to human nature
Well, no, so it isn't, if by liberty you mean 'the right to do whatever you wish without repercussion'. There's no society in which one person's liberties are not curtailed to some degree by the rights of others.

As some very insightful American (though I forget who) said, "My rights end where the other fellow's nose begins." If you want total freedom, you have to stop living with anyone else.


Reactionary said :
and so embarks on a crusade to force it on the population through various aggressive and increasingly totalitarian means.
What, things such as laws and courts? :P
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29-Nov-2017 04:06:20

Lumine

Lumine

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Raleirosen said :
Lumine said :
Well, they're *supposed* to be the same. Where they're not the same, they're failing in being actual justice, as I said just before. The society needs more real justice, not to give up on seeking it. Ah, in that case what matters is the distinction between what is meant by social justice (and if it's considered synonymous, egalitarianism) and the beliefs/actions of the movement that purportedly seeks it -- which is what was laughable about the original comparison, I think.

I understand your point. Fair enough then!
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29-Nov-2017 04:07:34

Team Skull
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Team Skull

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Lumine said :

So there is. But justice means things are fair. So-called social justice that doesn't bring about fairness is failed social justice, or people misusing the quite reasonable aim for increased equity to promote inequity.

In which case it doesn't deserve the label of justice at all. That doesn't mean people shouldn't keep trying to make things *actually* fairer.

Million dollar question: How does one create "increased equity" when by the very definition of "equal", it can not be anything more or less than the very thing it is trying to be level to?

That'd be like saying 6 is equal to 4, which would obviously be foolish to say.

I mean, you could make the argument that it's to make up for decades/centuries of oppression and marginalization, but that raises yet another question: Wouldn't that make you no better than the very people whom marginalized you? Wouldn't you just be the very thing you have been trying to fight against?

Like there are people who will hate me and want to marginalize me because I am legally disabled. However, would that justify me trying to marginalize them and their life opportunities? No, it would just perpetuate (and in some cases exacerbate) the problem and does nothing to create societal progress.

That is the problem I have with social justice- at least most of the time, it doesn't promote equality, but rather a thinly veiled guise for preferential treatment, which is something I will not stand for. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

29-Nov-2017 04:14:12

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Team Skull said :
Like there are people who will hate me and want to marginalize me because I am legally disabled. However, would that justify me trying to marginalize them and their life opportunities? No, it would just perpetuate (and in some cases exacerbate) the problem and does nothing to create societal progress. When I say I advocate social justice, I don't refer to marginalising or revenge. This is why I personally would call them SRWs (social revenge warriors) rather than SJWs because they're not actually working towards or pushing social justice. Maybe their own ideas of justice, but that would be begging the question "What is/define justice?"

When it comes to justice, people tend to think equality and fair treatment for all, as well as fair share of wealth and resources and fair punishment for crimes committed. Throughout history humanity has had its dominions from certain groups, and many humans' natural responses would be to want to make the 'superiors' feel the domination they had to suffer. But at the same time, there are different tutors as to what constitutes good morals and justice, and this extends to family too. With different perceptions come different morals and codes of justice, and these perceptions are shaped by our experiences in upbringing, education and life experiences alike.

I personally want to, and can, see progress happen in the future. We've made some pretty good strides in the past, but they didn't and probably will never come without bumps in the road provided by the shortcomings of humanity such as paranoia and desire for revenge. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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29-Nov-2017 17:01:24

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