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Comp Cape Rework Dev Update Thread is locked

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Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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- It might be that cosmetics are worthless (or at least not worth that much) to you, but that doesn't apply to many other players - otherwise something like solomon, events and certain MTX promotions couldn't work at all. Also players wouldn't bother doing certain ingame activities, which just award cosmetic stuff. Otherwise players wouldn't buy keepsake keys to use real equipment (also skillcapes) as overrides. And especially an hard earned t3 override might be a sight you'll not see every day - why should that show less dedication than an actual item?
- Another issue that is fixed by making capes in general more modular (let's just ignore comp in here for once) is that players given more freedom of what they want to wear and what not. In terms of offence our best capes are 7 years old now. If specific effects are no longer bound to a (crappy) cape, players also would be interested in gaining better equipment when they're able to keep the effect without binding themselves to a poor item. As an example take ava's devices - even the alerter isn't really good, but since players wanted to use the effect on better equipment they've made it the skillcape perk for ranged - which nobody would wear since it's statwise inferior to the alerter. Adding the perk to comp is useless as well since comp has that effect anyway. So we got an intentionally pooly designed perk just to for having it as an option for max - and I am not sure how many players made use of that.
- Also due to modular capes players won't lose everything at once. If a new t2 combat boss is added they're losing a bit of their stats, not their whole utility - so players are free to engage the boss in their own pace and not having to do it ASAP (an amnesty period doesn't fully fix that issue)
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

22-Mar-2019 16:48:48 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 17:23:55 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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- I also don't think that you should go above and beyond for maximum stats, IFB has basically displayed no further competence for justifying a stat boost (oh gratulations, you've killed a boss not once, but 56904013 times in order to get their pet drop), I actually think there should be more than just a cosmetic reward for t2 content though. (I guess t3 lore will still award the MQC perk)

It might also be worth to take a look at the evaluation of the comp cape survey:

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/b0cfbt/tldw_425_comp_cape_rework_dev_qa/

Still 65 % of the compers who partook had the feeling, that unfitting requirements should be removed.

Combined 60 % of the compers who partook had the feeling that the reaper in its current form should either be abolished or at least be split.

And well there was a consensus between compers and non-compers to add fitting stuff - either eventually or instantly. But there was also a fairly large portion of compers who disagreed about that - and I think to remain fair to them keeping the existing solution as legacy comp is a nice compromise.

To go full circle, since neither of the capes is a subset of the other: If you want a cape which doesn't need much maintenance once earned - aim for legacy, if you want to stay up to date - aim for any of the new ones. How much you want to put in for maintenance depends on the amount of prestige you want to achieve. And this said I am fairly sure that t2 comp will be more prestigious than legacy comp and t3 more than trimmed legacy.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

22-Mar-2019 17:00:28 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 17:25:01 by Rikornak

Aqua Star

Aqua Star

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Yeah shelve it. Dunno why I ever supported it. Clearly didn't think they could fuck it up, especially not this badly. Now what's an unfun environment when you talk to people and see nonsense being said and stuff like that

22-Mar-2019 22:40:48

Uncl
Mar Member 2013

Uncl

Posts: 13,097 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said :
...And well there was a consensus between compers and non-compers to add fitting stuff - either eventually or instantly. But there was also a fairly large portion of compers who disagreed about that - and I think to remain fair to them keeping the existing solution as legacy comp is a nice compromise.

To go full circle, since neither of the capes is a subset of the other: If you want a cape which doesn't need much maintenance once earned - aim for legacy, if you want to stay up to date - aim for any of the new ones. How much you want to put in for maintenance depends on the amount of prestige you want to achieve. And this said I am fairly sure that t2 comp will be more prestigious than legacy comp and t3 more than trimmed legacy.

For all your writing, you're thinking wrong - It's more a Venn diagrams than Natural Numbers being strict Subsets of Integers. If both sets are subsets of each other, then by definition, They Are The Same Set.

As the comp covers more than just combat, It Is Impossible for it ever to be a subset of each of the 3 capes with 3 tiers. There will be overlap for comp/(t) cape, and the 3 capes with their 3 tiers.

There is zero reason why, the Combat cape couldn't entirely be a subset of a comp/(t) cape - much the same way Natural numbers are a subset of Integers. Comp(t) is irrational, and IFB is complex :D

You have not addressed adding more requirements to the comp cape, nor have you addressed a combat/PVM cape. Which is what the poll actually reads. If you're trying to combine results in the poll you stated, you'd need to know the sample populations of both. Stats has rules on how you can combine data and look at it. Also, your "sizable" is much less than a majority - it's a minority.

Anyway, the polls actually show:
More support for adding in 1 cape, less than comp; easier to maintain.
Adding in requirements with a grace period.
Removing outdated requirements.
My Threads:
Starting Player Owned Ports-v2

23-Mar-2019 03:25:02 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 03:32:41 by Uncl

Uncl
Mar Member 2013

Uncl

Posts: 13,097 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Capes of accomplishment should be cosmetic only, meaning useful capes come from other sources (fire cape, new drops, etc): Comp 22% No-Comp 32%

Capes of accomplishment should still be best in slot, but the best cape should be easier to get and maintain than comp in some way (but still difficult): Comp 29% No-Comp 41%

Don't change anything about the way benefits on capes works: Comp 49% No-Comp 27%


So 78% of compers, and 68% pf no comps, believe, it should be kept the same or make it easier to maintain. Hence the combat cape & grace periods. Only 22% of compers, and 32% of no comps, think it should be cosmetic.

Everyone agrees, you can just add requirements to the comp cape. 33% of Compers say no don't add, and 27% of no comps say don't add. Adding in 3 tiers and 3 capes is the near opposite of this.

As for cosmetics, the comp, comp(t), qp, and mqc are bragging rights to be shown off. As for FashionScape, it's what you like to wear to match your outfit. Designing 4 new capes isn't going to change FashionScape. That was your point right? So you're agreeing that a cosmetic only ( which may or may not fit peoples FashionScape ) would make it less than useful.

From the earlier fig leaf, comp(t) people would get t3 capes, and the same 6 month grace period.
My Threads:
Starting Player Owned Ports-v2

23-Mar-2019 03:26:57 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 03:44:34 by Uncl

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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I guess the thing as a whole is a tad bit older than just the poll - and I am not sure if you had read the dev blog to this.

If we were to take a correctly enforced (legacy) comp (all fitting completeables/unlockables added, purely achievement based stuff removed) it will significantly amplify the issue that game has almost no milestones - basically we got QPC, Max, MQC, Comp and Trimmed Comp. The former two are our entry levels, while only Max will remain fairly static, so it could eventually happen, that the QPC will demand more xp wise than a max cape - not to speak it has challenges, that go past 'grind for x hours' - but I guess as an entry level thing a maxed player should be able to get it the latest when he gets maxed. The other three capes are by concept rising ever higher and higher - MQC and trimmed comp are purely cosmetic (well okay the former has an handful of teleports, which the regular QPC wouldn't have), but comp locks powerful utility behind content it doesn't fit to.

When comp gets more and more overbloated it gets set farer and farer away from max (which likely was one of the reasons why they were so reluctantly with adding more requirements). In the new system we now have 24 milestones: The 18 individual metas, the 3 comp metas, max (since it's less than skills 1), legacy comp, legacy trimmed comp. This way something like solak won't suddenly cause players to lose everything - at best they lose t2 (and in conjunction t3) combat and comp, as well as both legacy capes.

Let's say a player fails at t1 combat, but manages to do t1 skilling and lore - this way he still gets his utility perks, while the combat bonus still would be exclusive to the player who is more adept at fighting (and thus needs the boost) - on the other hand the fighter doesn't need to bother raising skills or doing quests, which wouldn't help him for combat - he loses access to some (but not all) utility then so.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

23-Mar-2019 06:19:43 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 06:36:06 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
You identified the reaper cape as a wish of the community as a sub-milestone towards comp. But what is actually wrong having the very same thing for 5 other types of players. It all will eventually funel in a comp cape, but you do not just have combat as a path to traverse (+ some standalone stuff). Actually having 'just' the reaper cape wouldn't have fixed that issue since it was the part most players had an issue with comp. It would have validated the reaper as a requirement (since it wouldn't have been just a random achievement anymore) - but certainly not fixed that very issue. Having the reaper split in two tiers should do the thing though. Most players will at least have t1 combat - but not 2 or 3. As I said - I am not even entirely sure if a full reaper completion would be sufficient for t2 combat.

Another thing is if they're introducing more and more requirements that do not really would play in a league with everything existing they can add on more tiers and metas. The current comp system just isn't that expandable. I always was in favour of a true trimmed comp with a full re-classification on what is on each cape, but this new system basically is the same - not just vertically extending it, but also horizontally: Since it isn't restricted to unlockables/completables as valid requirements, but also achievements they'll be able to design ever weirder challenges.

As for cosmetics: I think the best thing is if all utility and bonuses are given for the first two meta tiers - alongside different bonuses for minigames, exploration and maybe a fun, small thing for misc - this way a skiller needs to keep up his perks, the very same way a comper or quest now or also a fighter in the new system. And I say this not knowing the cosmetics styles for the skilling, combat and comp capes - I think more than 8 years of difference between the old capes of distinction and those new ones might make them quite an eye-catcher, huh?
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

23-Mar-2019 06:20:01 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 06:40:23 by Rikornak

B I L L Y
Nov Member 2011

B I L L Y

Posts: 3,054 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Solseraphim said :
I've read through the details and quite frankly I love the sound of this. It allows for end-game content that can be achieved overtime and in an order appropriate to your current in-game play style. You can do combat while working towards your combat reqs or skill while working towards skilling reqs, etc. In the end no matter what your style of play is you will be receiving relevant rewards and contributing to the goal of obtaining the Meta achievement capes.

Of course there is still more work to be done, but we are on the right track. Regardless of the changes made (or if no changes are made) people will not like what is being done, so lets embrace the change and contribute with positive feedback.

23-Mar-2019 12:37:18

Aqua Star

Aqua Star

Posts: 1,891 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
B I L L Y said :
Solseraphim said :
I've read through the details and quite frankly I love the sound of this. It allows for end-game content that can be achieved overtime and in an order appropriate to your current in-game play style. You can do combat while working towards your combat reqs or skill while working towards skilling reqs, etc. In the end no matter what your style of play is you will be receiving relevant rewards and contributing to the goal of obtaining the Meta achievement capes.

Of course there is still more work to be done, but we are on the right track. Regardless of the changes made (or if no changes are made) people will not like what is being done, so lets embrace the change and contribute with positive feedback.


There's nothing positive to say about any of that. I'd sack them.
Now what's an unfun environment when you talk to people and see nonsense being said and stuff like that

23-Mar-2019 12:47:16

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