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Yusou Bhoroi

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Edited - post no longer needed, though may re-use.

30-Nov-2018 00:12:52 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2018 00:14:37 by Yusou Bhoroi

Hoppeeee

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Hello all! I will be hosting a Great Orb Project Reunion to coincide with my 99 Runecrafting Party next Saturday, July 24th. I hope all of you will be able to make it!! Please spread the word to any and all of your friends. Here are the details:

Great Orb Project Reunion
Date: July 24, 2021
Time: 8:00 PM UTC (4:00 PM EDT)
World: 61
Location: Great Orb Project Lobby
Host: Hoppeeee
FC: Gee Oh Pee

17-Jul-2021 08:57:52 - Last edited on 17-Jul-2021 08:58:20 by Hoppeeee

Yusou Bhoroi

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[Posting this here, while I sort out formatting, and edit out rant + extraneous things - though that's fairly low priority, on my things-which-need-doing list, so may take a while to get round to it, or forget..
it's from This Thread .]

I wrote a reply (twice) the other day (before your latest 2 posts), but it kept logging me out, while I was typing, so I lost it, and was needing to get away quickly, so was too distracted to think to save it elsewhere.

I'll try and remember what I can, and post it again, in a while/in the next few days, as I don't wish to leave out anything important. That said, one of the things I brought up in that, was questioning the usefulness of discussing these things in this thread, as the suggestion in the OP is unlikely to change, based on our discussions, and if past instances are to be examples of future practice, our intricate discussions, making the thread longer, will be taken as a measure of how popular the idea is, without regard as to the changed direction of discussion, nor the voiced disagreements, or concerns, by the parties involved.
Maybe this has changed, with all the recent changes in staffing (after all, that's the only reason I consider discussion, and suggestions on Minigame topics to have possible value, again; policy changes may have made that a possibility, but I'm still wary - after all, they didn't include Minigame suggestions which passed the inclusion mark, in Runelabs, despite including all other ideas which did - even those with fewer than half the number of votes).
Even so, it would probably be more use to discuss things in a thread with broader purpose, not tied to a single suggestion. However, In the meantime:

23-Dec-2022 10:40:27

Yusou Bhoroi

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Seasons Past said :
Awarding runes and experience directly for each orb scored I think would be far more rewarding than handing out rune essence which drops on the ground half the time. I also agree that the experience reward should be significant. As the Great Orb Project involves highly active gameplay, I think it would be reasonable for experience earned through the minigame to rival and exceed that of the Runespan.

I've done some in-depth analysis of this, and the appropriate rates, in the past (some of it might still be on the Forums, but had dropped off my profile, before I was away, so I'll have to search it out). I have access to a lot of data, from Years of running the GoP Teaching/Help Chat, as well as other games with newcommer folk (a few 10s of thousands of recorded game scores), so have a decent basis for working out good scoring, and rewards, for the average player; I also have some data on how the better players score, and can work out what levels to cap it off at.

23-Dec-2022 10:41:04

Yusou Bhoroi

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With regards how good xp it should be, arguably it should be (by far) the best RCing xp in the game, given how much more effort it requires than any other method. The level of skill, in order to play well, exceeds that of Bossing (which mostly relies on memorising rotations of mechanics, and counting), as it involves a higher degree of random elements, with there not being set orb-spawn seeds. On top of this, you'd have to have team mates, in order to score higher, so there's a constant update to your bayesian system, every game-tik, to compensate for their actions, and plan the best coord synergy.

Unlike Bosses, it is largely a mobility, and mixture of iterative, and noniterative puzzle solving Skilling Boss. Every tik, you update your plan, and every tik you have to factor in all the relevant mechanics, instead of them being in a fixed cycle. Folk have done Bosses, blindfolded - you can't do that for Gop.

You need the right gear, and abilities, you need to be skilled in the use of each of these, while integrating them into your Gop gameplan. You need to know how, and when to coordinate these things, with other players, when it's appropriate to use them, and when it's potentially more efficient to take a pass on doing what may be the best thing to do, in-the-moment, but would likely negatively effect you future ability to cope with an unknown set of respawns.

If incorporating actual combat into your game (which can be done, if playing for top score, when you're Cross-Gopping), you have to factor in the best methods to disrupt the enemy team, in any moments of idle tiks, or ones where the efficiency of doing so, outweighs the cost (and even if simply Duel-Gopping, you have to make sure to time your stun-prevention, to when your teammate needs to use you as a springboard).

This means only DG has similarities to Gop, in complexity, and changing situations (and even DG is PvM, not PvP - so has fewer difficult-to-predict elements).

23-Dec-2022 10:41:27 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2022 11:54:38 by Yusou Bhoroi

Yusou Bhoroi

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Even if you ignore the more complicated elements, and stick to simply playing GoP without any abilities, it has elements making it more complicated to perform efficiently (within those restrictions), than tackling a boss efficiently - most bosses being fairly simple, once you have the rotations, and positions down, and sufficiently good gear.

Bosses become easier the more skilled you are at them (or the more skilled your team is - with the only random element then being damage numbers, which is narrowed down by gear, and can even be largely ignored as a factor, for highly experienced teams. Gop becomes ever harder, and more complicated, as you have to add more elements, and put perfect practice into play, for each of them; there are few instances where learning a new element makes old considerations entirely defunct.

It's certainly challenging to learn the early elements, too, much like bossing, but there appears to be a steeper end-game curve, which is less solvable by simply repeat-practice (though that is necessary, also ).

Guthixian Caches is an activity akin to a very simplified form of Gop, minus the whole orb-movement factor, and with much less random spawns (indeed, it was partly influenced by the suggestion that Gop gameplay, bringing a randomly spawning set of objects, into a central position, using movement, planning, and competitiveness, as key elements, would perhaps make a good basis for the content, and would neatly tie in with the general appearance of Divination-training, but in a more high-speed, and interactive setting, also). Unlike Gop, it's based around achieving a set score, in as little time as possible, and is very easy to max past the target, and pare it down to even lower timings.

23-Dec-2022 10:41:49 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2022 12:01:06 by Yusou Bhoroi

Yusou Bhoroi

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Given how extremely rewarding caches are (especially in the context of the skill, when they came out), and how they are whole section of mechanics easier ( at least , and that's before even factoring in the interplay between the various mechanics, let alone the fact that it's a team game), it would only make sense to make GoP, proportionately to the rest of the Runecrafting skill, as rewarding - the added interactivity, and personal(and team)-skill, counterbalancing Cache's limited-availability, D&D aspect.

Ideally, it would be incorporated as the main training method, for 99-120+. That would allow them to add quest-locked Altars, as an option, too (after all, lore-wise, they need to be being tended to by Goppers - heck, the altars should require Goppers to have passed through them, recently, in order to produce multiple runes, and have diminishing returns, till they are refreshed again, if we were sticking to the lore... so it only makes sense that we should be able to participate in that effort).

The Span should also be a very finite resource, as it is essentially formed by excessive use of magic, in the vicinity of the Wizards' Tower; a small portion the waste-products of which, feeds the Span (it's essentially an ever-decreasing efficiency of recycling, and can only return a tiny portion of the magic already used - so we need Gop to feed the Altars, which feed the magic-use, which feeds the Span, which recycles some of that energy back into the system, and in the process destroys itself). High-level Runecrafters, with their high-efficiency siphoning, are far too risky to let loose in the Span, in high numbers. They could destabilise the pocket, causing it to collapse, an leave the Wizards without their additional source of runes (the only one over which they have complete control, and access to the proceeds, I might add - so they certainly wouldn't want to lose that).

23-Dec-2022 10:42:01 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2022 12:17:25 by Yusou Bhoroi

Yusou Bhoroi

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I'll go over precise recommendations, once I've refactored the calculations with more up-to-date data, but the base-rate, for new players, should roughly compare to the best RC xp, elsewhere, with any additional increase in skill, or effort, causing an immediate, noticeable feedback in increased reward. Extreme inputs, and skill, should far exceed anything possible elsewhere. The degree to which this happens, should be depend on what other rewards become available from the shop (fewer new rewards, means less dev work, and allows the xp to be more rewarding, but it would be nice to have something to give those staying on past 200mxp, an incentive to do so, or additional compensation for time spent).

It's team-based content, and may still entail an element of PvP (depending on how things are tweaked), so should be rewarding enough to incentivise folk to participate in this, or it should have solo options :- DG has this, and has had buffs to solo playing, to bring it in-line with modern userbase preferences. If Gop xp is targeted at the higher end of the levels, then it would make sense to cater for players used to the rest of the game, even if it attempts to encourage interaction - something sorely missing, in the game, these days, partly due to there not being enough low-level, fun (and possibly importantly: F2P-accessible) ways for people to interact in active content. This is possibly why the higher-level playerbase is so tilted towards AFK-able, solo activities (it's partly due to player age, but that's caused by retaining only those new players who like that kind of play, or converting them to it - that leaves out huge chunks of potential playerbase, or market areas - ones for which the game engine, and huge sections of the old game, are already geared towards supporting, if only there was a little more in the right areas).

23-Dec-2022 10:42:16

Yusou Bhoroi

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The newer tutorials have been great, but they hand-hold through solo, low-interaction play, for long enough that that's what is expected by the new players. Previously, there was less support, but more emphasis on exploring for yourself... which was often less effective at introducing players to some major areas of the game, but let them stand around, waste time, talk, and find other aspects of the game, which might turn out to be their preference, or click with them, becoming their content niche, in which they become long-term players, and from which they slowly explore the rest of the game.
A lack of this, has caused a lack of retention of those new players who are geared towards interaction, and competitive play, in a non-grindy way - which, as an old player, who skilled a lot, before make-x, does seem a little pointless, now it's all comparatively AFKable, so if you like competitive-grinding, it seems an odd choice. Agility was one of the last skill-based holdouts, for this, and had a great community (some of whom were even big posters on this Forum), but automation, and various other cuts in utility of some skills, in a general-game-mechanicy way, has lead to skills losing a lot of their uniqueness in grind-form, and thus deprived the game of different niches, for different types of gamer to find as a home.

Even grinding used to have more mechanical differentiation, so despite the game becoming geared towards grinding, it's actually less diverse, even within that, and has lost other elements of the game, in furthering that cause. Now that skills have become easier (both in overall in-put terms, and in being so similar, in terms of what inputs you perform, and that you can AFK them), there's little reason why anyone wouldn't train all skills, or view maxing them out as an achievable goal, so everyone aims for that, and doesn't explore other content, which might delay it.

23-Dec-2022 10:42:31 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2022 10:51:01 by Yusou Bhoroi

Yusou Bhoroi

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Any content not directly tied to this, or the most efficient way to do this (or even just not suiting the game-environment-instigated preferred solo-AFK way of doing things), simply gets bypassed. Any real attempt to tackle this, and open the game up to appealing to, and retaining, a wider variety of players, would need to start with the tutorial. Yes, the game is big, and confusing, but overcoming this is often viewed as having been fun, and allowing all types of players to easily find a form of content suited to their preferences, allows them to explore the whole complexity, at their own pace, from their safespot, while retaining them in-game.

The game is having problems with retaining people, after they "complete" the game (whatever each individual considers that to be). Fresh Start Worlds (which I'd only ever seen suggested, before, as a method for brand new players, to grow up in a cohort, before being exposed to the influence of Maxed players, who blight them with the peer pressure to max, or only look at post-max content... so this iteration is really indicative of the current problem), Ironman modes, and new skills, are all attempts to retain existing players, in the existing dominant playstyle; any serious attempts at encouraging other types of players (in interactive, or group content, like bosses, and even Minigames), is aimed at those already indoctrinated to this path, or not weeded out by this playstyle focus, so is bound to be ineffective, as the majority of those for whom other playstyles would appeal, have long since dropped the game, or been converted. The focus needs to be on encouraging early access to a variety of gamplay-style-friendly niches in content - that way, all types of player have something which appeals to them, and has a chance of retaining them.

23-Dec-2022 10:42:52 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2022 10:51:20 by Yusou Bhoroi