RuneScape Forum Archive | Inactive Clan Owners

Aug

2007

Pescao6

Posts: 9,075 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Thylordship said :
Pescao6 said :
I often think that my clan's founder was a genius for being inactive. The clan did everything he wanted and all he had to do was point the way.
But doesn’t this prove my point? He did what he wanted and stepped down. He didn’t stay while not leading.
Let's see...

Our Clan was originally formed around late 2005.
We say it was founded on January 7, 2006
which was the date our first offsite forum was created.

I was told our Founder became inactive around March 2006.

I joined the Clan somewhere around June 2006
and didn't even meet our Founder until I registered
on our offsite forum on July 16, 2006.

A week later, we lost an alliance due to our Founder's inactivity.

And on August 2006, I was promoted as the Events Forum Moderator.

On November 2006, half the Clan left to start another Clan.
And I became a Leader (sort-of like a Deputy Owner).

I inherited the Clan on December 21, 2006 when our Founder retired.
And moved us to our second offsite forum on March 3, 2007.

On April 7, 2008, our Founder returned to the Clan.
And he later left to start another clan on September 24, 2008.

I think I saw my Clan's Founder in-game maybe 5 times during that time.
But then again, things were different back then.

It didn't matter that our Founder was inactive because we had other Leaders in our Clan with the same Administrative Permissions as our Founder.

The idea of 1 Leader per Clan was first brought to this game on August 6, 2007 when the Clan Chats we now call Friends Chats got released. The majority of Clans in the game before that had 2-3 people they called Leaders. I think even Mod Timbo recognized that when he wrote the first CLF Access thread.

This whole dilemma roots from Deputy Owners being less than the Owners instead of equals.

*

Pescao6

of

El Imperio Latino

Hola Noob! Klk? What's up?

~

Discord: Pescao6#0001

08-Dec-2013 02:34:41

Raaf

Forum Moderator Posts: 19,122 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

What about a tickbox option that clan leaders are able to tick in the clan settings page. That would say something like if I am ever innactive, I hand the clan over to the next highest rank or something like that (and then Jmods can manually change it)

08-Dec-2013 03:12:12

Apr

2023

Thylordship

Posts: 1,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Pescao6 said :
This whole dilemma roots from Deputy Owners being less than Owners instead of equals. I would completely disagree. This seems to be your opinion on how clans should run. Clans shouldn’t be told they have to run a certain way to survive. I have no problems if a Leader wants to be the big Cheese and be the hand holding up his clan. But should he leave after the clan is established for whatever reason, that clan shouldn’t just be told, “Sorry, you’re out of luck.” Erasing accomplishments instead of validating hard work is neither good business nor a good game.

Honestly, I don’t care how a specific leader runs his clan. He could be the sole leader controlling a maxed clan and if he does it well enough that all 500 stay, kudos to him. What I do care about is having dozens or hundreds of people lose their clan over one person’s failure to leave his clan with anything before leaving. One poor decision shouldn’t disband hundreds.

Your clan succeeded. Congrats, you and your clan deserve it and I truly mean that.

But a few clans succeeding should not outweigh the massive number of clans who failed due to no safety net.

Though sure, you could say by adding this in, Jagex is still telling clans how they should be run. I would argue against that as well. They are telling leaders only that if they want to remain leaders, they need to log in once every x months. I’m not entirely certain that it’s unreasonable for Runescape to say if you want to be a prominent figure in Runescape, you should log in to Runescape a few times a year.

@ Raaf
What about Leaders who leave and don't tick that box? If they didn't care to give their clan anything before leaving, I'm not sure they'd tick that box.

08-Dec-2013 09:57:08

[#OUEGO5OBM]

Posts: 11,155 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I like Raaf's idea. If for some reason a clan leader doesn't tick the box then I'd say that clan will have to live with that. How often does this happen anyway? Is it really worth spending development time on the odd clan who loses their clan leader? I'm very much against Jagex interference in clan ownership and think it could be setting a very dangerous precedent. There have been instances before when this went horribly wrong.

Just out of curiosity does anyone who supports this action actually know of a clan who lost their clan owner to inactivity? I personally know of one and the clan owner returned and wasn't too happy about being kicked from his clan.

08-Dec-2013 13:52:57

Apr

2023

Thylordship

Posts: 1,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I think this is far more common than most of us realize from "we've had a number of requests." in the OP and the fact so many developers have been discussing it says this is an even larger number.

My clan has actually had to take several random clans from our world in and help them restart. We've sheltered members, consulted on administrations to prevent it from happening again, and helped with transitions. It's difficult on all parties.

Sorry about your friend, but Jagex doesn't do that lightly so if they did, his clan must've been in bad shape due to his absence. I'm happy the clan managed to survive.

I guess I don't understand the opposing viewpoint on this so I'll just ask: Clans are brought into the game as a group; you need 5 people to found one. The owner is just the guy with the piece of paper. What makes him so special that he should never be removed from his position due to months of inactivity?

08-Dec-2013 14:55:29

Feb

2008

KitKat

Posts: 7,030 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Thylordship said :
I guess I don't understand the opposing viewpoint on this so I'll just ask: Clans are brought into the game as a group; you need 5 people to found one. The owner is just the guy with the piece of paper. What makes him so special that he should never be removed from his position due to months of inactivity?
First I want to say that I'm not cocky and I know my clan would survive just fine without me but to answer your question with a question, what about those who founded the Clan without the help of 4 people but had to have those 4 others just so we could move to the CC?

Founder of Chill Mates

.........

¸ • * ˆ ˆ * • ¸

....

Scatter Kindness

....

¸ • * ˆ ˆ * • ¸

08-Dec-2013 16:06:55

Jan

2008

Leta

Forum Moderator Posts: 25,401 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

" Clans are brought into the game as a group; you need 5 people to found one. The owner is just the guy with the piece of paper "

I feel the need to point out that clans do not need 5 people to be founded. That is a relatively new notion and many clans pre-date this. Many a clan has sprang from the will of one individual. Though perhaps the age of the citadel is changing this, as clans are ever-changing. There is ofcourse no right or wrong way to found a clan, though I'd say it is very important not to lump all clans together in this way.

Anyways, yes citadels and the 'official' clan system needs five people to begin, but not all clans use a citadel nor do even all clans even use the clan system. Some choose to operate out of FC's or other means entirely, yet they are still clans just as any other. Clans can be founded with any number of people, and that number includes one. Furthermore as stated above, even with the official clan system the role that the other four "founders" would play in the clan can vary greatly. They may simply be used to move into the CC, nothing more.

Simply put, no clan is the same. The role and importance of the leadership varies *greatly* from clan to clan. No one person can answer that question and have it apply to every clan, not even close. Which is also why I find it odd to see talk of an automated system put in place to handle a very diverse and sensitive subject.

In any case, a leader/owner is often much more than just 'the guy with the piece of paper'.
-----

Lastly, to echo Goldendaisy... " How often does this happen anyway? Is it really worth spending development time on the odd clan who loses their clan leader? I'm very much against Jagex interference in clan ownership and think it could be setting a very dangerous precedent. "

*Tip-toes back out as I've already said my piece* RSC - Gone, but never forgotten.

08-Dec-2013 17:14:48 - Last edited on 08-Dec-2013 17:21:28 by Leta

Apr

2006

Esploratore

Posts: 1,675 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Maybe some clan owners served no more purpose than to hold the charter when the clan was founded as one poster stated, but I'd say many more clan owners/leaders put a lot of effort into helping guide their clan, and played a significant role in nurturing it as it grew. But real life happens and causes people to come and go in the game, and that includes clan owners. There can be times that significant events in life make anything related to Runescape (clans included) seem trivial and not a priority. (Blasphemy? I don't think so.) At any rate, I'm all for helping leaderless clans but don't want a system put into place that just casts aside an inactive leader with no consideration that there may be extenuating circumstances for their inactivity other than they have lost interest in or don't care about the clan they helped form.

That being said, I suggest that a more comprehensive list of permissions be added to organisers+ which can be checked off and customized by every clan. It would create a kind of Order of Succession. This would help clans avoid major problems with clan management if a clan owner goes inactive in the future.

Clans that currently have an inactive owner could fill out a form requesting a specific minimum rank be granted the full list of permissions by Jagex if their clan owner was inactive for "x" (three months perhaps?) months. If the answers to the questions on the form qualify them for a modification to the clan permissions, it's granted. This way, the clan could continue to fully function and the inactive leader maintains their position in the clan in case they return.

Edited one sentence in last paragraph for clarity.

08-Dec-2013 17:50:45 - Last edited on 08-Dec-2013 17:54:20 by Esploratore

Apr

2023

Thylordship

Posts: 1,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Agreed, clans are different, formations of clans are different, leaders and their roles are different. But they all have one thing in common: they're all RS clans. I'm referring to clans that only use the current clan system however as that is what this update is targeting.

One of the rules in RS is everything comes at a cost so that everything is balanced. If you put in the time and effort you get rewarded is usually how it goes. Conversely, if you stop putting in the effort and time, you stop getting rewarded.

If you create a clan and work and make it great, you put in all the time and effort and are rewarded with the prestige of being the leader of a great and prominent clan. Problem is once you stop putting forth the effort, you still maintain the reward of being the leader. This is against rs principles we can observe in every other aspect of RS. Even the kingdom of miscellenia requires work every 100 days.

All this automated system would do is force a leader of a clan to log in a few times out of every year. It's not making him actually play nor lead his clan any differently. The only way I can see this affecting leaders are those who leave for vast periods of time without making any preparations for their account, clan or regaining their post. They're so many ways to circumvent something like this if one tried that I don't see this affecting any legitimate clan leaders. Unless someone can come up with a scenario on how a clan leader could unknowingly and unfairly lose their clan?

And yes, I agree that clan leaders are more than just a person with a piece of paper just like I agree with the notion that clan members are more than names on the clan roster. Every role and member in a clan is important. A leader runs the clan, clan members are the clan. Clan members can be kicked, why is the leader so much better than his clan? You don't have to be a leader in a clan to put forth effort and care about a clan to help it grow.

08-Dec-2013 18:01:08 - Last edited on 08-Dec-2013 18:04:56 by Thylordship

[#OUEGO5OBM]

Posts: 11,155 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Point being, clans or rather clan leaders who use the clan system , like mine, didn't sign up to these clan tools for Jagex to interfere with the structure of the clan. My clan was already well established before clan tools came out. If clan tools had never happened and I had gone inactive my clan would have set up again in a different FC. The only reason clans couldn't or wouldn't do this now is because of the clan highscores and the citadel. Things which Jagex introduced and have absolutely nothing in common with why clans existed in the first place. I really hope the Jmods listen to the voices of reason here and find an alternative to kicking inactive clan leaders. I might be Old School on this subject but ever since I have been involved with clans the Clan leader decided who ran the clan and not Jagex even if they had people from that clan asking them to.

08-Dec-2013 18:40:24

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