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NotFishing

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Inferi said :

Maybe they should try to share it again, then. There's always someone in the world that will accept it, and at this point I really don't think they have anything to lose by doing so.

A minority will accept it, but the Grey Wardens are the type of organization that needs the support of the majority in order to actually do their job.

Inferi said :

If they haven't done that already, they're taking too long.

You're not even paying attention to what I'm typing.

Unless you expect them to magically conjure up a brand new chain of command within a minute of finding out everyone from the previous chain is dead.

If the leadership is gone, that means Weisshaupt needs to step in and send some replacements. But Weisshaupt has gone dark. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 00:20:04 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:21:28 by NotFishing

Westenev

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They do have a chain of command though – the Inquisitor. Based on the War Table missions, it would seem the Wardens are doing just fine taking Cullen and Leliana's orders. Either someone stepped up, or the Wardens of Southern Theadas just joined the Chantry.

To be honest, I think killing as much of the order as possible is probably a good thing. People like the Warden-Commander, Alistair and Blackwall are true wardens, despite not having gone through proper procedures and rites. Many of the "real" Wardens we see are dirty cowards who abandon their posts, or follow blatently bad orders.

EDIT:
I think this might be why the Warden-Commander is seeking a "cure" to the blight - people would be more accepting of the taint and the Grey Wardens if there was actually a way to reverse the process.

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12-Jun-2018 00:27:46 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:32:47 by Westenev

Inferi

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I'm completely paying attention to what you're typing. I just don't agree with it. If Weisshaupt has gone dark, wouldn't it make more sense to send someone who can gather support before they go? Sending the remnants of the Wardens, who should be going anyways, will not be bolstered greatly by the addition of a single person acting as their command. However, should you also send someone who can gather additional allies from elsewhere, it seems to me that the chance of success would be greater should something untoward be happening there.

In the end, I suppose it's just another matter of opinion, as there is no conclusive evidence to say which one would be the best choice. You think there's more value in saving the Warden, while I believe that there's more value in saving Hawke.

But honestly, if you don't tell anyone, you gain nothing. How do you gain a majority of support anyways? The answer is that you start from the bottom. There will never be a majority of anyone supporting you at the start, but if you put effort into it, and someone believes you, there's a much greater chance that you'll get somewhere than if you do nothing and keep things as is.

Westenev said :
EDIT:
I think this might be why the Warden-Commander is seeking a "cure" to the blight - people would be more accepting of the taint and the Grey Wardens if there was actually a way to reverse the process.

Also so they can be with Leliana, because that is the worthiest goal of all. Done in by the dubious doings of destiny.

12-Jun-2018 00:32:46 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:42:37 by Inferi

NotFishing

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Westenev said :

They do have a chain of command though – the Inquisitor. Based on the War Table missions, it would seem the Wardens are doing just fine taking Cullen and Leliana's orders. Either someone stepped up, or the Wardens of Southern Theadas just joined the Chantry.

That's more of a temporary thing. They're following the Inquisition's orders because:
A) Corypheus is one of the first ever Darkspawn. Defeating him is now official Grey Warden business.
B) They have no leaders of their own.
C) They need to make amends for Clarel's idiocy if they wish to remain in Orlais.
D) They're still waiting to hear back from Weisshaupt.

Westenev said :

People like the Warden-Commander, Alistair and Blackwall are true wardens, despite not having gone through proper procedures and rites.

No, those are idealized visions of the Grey Wardens. They aren't actually true Wardens. A true Warden would stop at nothing to defeat the Blight. Alistair himself acknowledges this, but at the end of the day he isn't actually capable of doing it. And Blackwall... his personal quest really speaks for itself.

Westenev said :

Many of the "real" Wardens we see are dirty cowards who abandon their posts, or follow blatently bad orders.

This is what happens when you fill an order with conscripts and criminals.

Though I would encourage you to read The Calling, which follows a team of Wardens going on an expedition into the Deep Roads.

Only two or three of the team members really fall under your classification of a bad Warden. The rest are in a sensible middle ground - pragmatic, but still willing to die for their order. Even Duncan the Kleptomaniac. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 00:43:12 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:43:28 by NotFishing

NotFishing

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Inferi said :

If Weisshaupt has gone dark, wouldn't it make more sense to send someone who can gather support before they go... However, should you also send someone who can gather additional allies from elsewhere, it seems to me that the chance of success would be greater should something untoward be happening there.

You seem to be misunderstanding the Weisshaupt messenger's purpose.

The goal isn't to show up at Weisshaupt with an army. They don't know anything bad is happening there just yet. The goal is to go there and say: "Hey, there's been a crisis. The Orlesian Wardens have lost all of their leaders, while a Darkspawn Magister and possibly an archdemon are on the loose. We've also allied with the Inquisition. Anything you can do to help?"

They're more likely to listen to a Senior Warden than they are to listen to an upstart hero whose only affiliation to the order is a sibling who occasionally goes AWOL to help said hero.

Inferi said :

But honestly, if you don't tell anyone, you gain nothing. How do you gain a majority of support anyways?

I suppose it's less about support and more about tolerance. If the masses find out, there will be a push for an exalted march. Wardens who enter cities will face angry mobs. Nobles will withdraw funding, or push for the Wardens to be exiled.

If you don't tell anyone, you gain nothing. But if you tell everyone, you stand to lose everything.

Acceptance takes time, and there's a very real chance that the Wardens will be ground into dust before they actually achieve that acceptance... or a Blight will occur within that time. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 00:55:07 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:58:19 by NotFishing

NotFishing

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Westenev said :

I think this might be why the Warden-Commander is seeking a "cure" to the blight - people would be more accepting of the taint and the Grey Wardens if there was actually a way to reverse the process.

There are other factors at play, too. If you're the Queen/Prince Consort of Fereldan, you need to cure your infertility so you can produce an heir. If you're the Teyrn of Gwaren, or a Paragon of Orzammar, you might want to be free of your obligations to the Wardens so you can return home and start making your political moves. Or maybe you just want Wardens to be able to retire instead of throwing their lives away in the Deep Roads. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 00:56:30 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 00:57:22 by NotFishing

Westenev

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NotFishing said :
Inferi said :

If Weisshaupt has gone dark, wouldn't it make more sense to send someone who can gather support before they go... However, should you also send someone who can gather additional allies from elsewhere, it seems to me that the chance of success would be greater should something untoward be happening there.

You seem to be misunderstanding the Weisshaupt messenger's purpose.

The goal isn't to show up at Weisshaupt with an army. They don't know anything bad is happening there just yet. The goal is to go there and say: "Hey, there's been a crisis. The Orlesian Wardens have lost all of their leaders, while a Darkspawn Magister and possibly an archdemon are on the loose. We've also allied with the Inquisition. Anything you can do to help?"

They're more likely to listen to a Senior Warden than they are to listen to an upstart hero whose only affiliation to the order is a sibling who occasionally goes AWOL to help said hero.

We know that Tevinter has been practicing ways to control Wardens. What if that research was used so someone could get a bigger piece of the pie? From what we know, Weisshaupt exists in an area with no oversight - hell, they are the oversight.

Do you really want to send a warden to investigate that?

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12-Jun-2018 01:03:51

NotFishing

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Seems more likely that the Weisshaupt Wardens have been taken over by the Architect. Or there's simply a dispute over whether or not they should remain isolated from the rest of the world.

Westenev said :

We know that Tevinter has been practicing ways to control Wardens.

Have they? I was under the impression that Erimond was just casting a generic mind-control blood spell using the leftover energy from the sacrifices. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 01:05:40 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 01:09:52 by NotFishing

Westenev

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All the more reason to use Hawke instead.

Using the calling to force the Wardens into demon binding might have been plan A, but who knows how many plan B's Coryphius had his researchers develop? Remember that Coryphius had advisors and an organisation backing him too, many of whom were blinded by self-interest and zealotry.

EDIT: If there's one thing we should all agree on, we shouldn't send the Warden Commander to anywhere the enemy uses bows. Has anyone noticed how nobody can get a clear shot at Hawke, the Inquisitor has a sixth sense for incomming arrows, but the Warden Commander just takes it like a champ?

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12-Jun-2018 01:09:24 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 01:13:57 by Westenev

NotFishing

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Westenev said :

Using the calling to force the Wardens into demon binding might have been plan A, but who knows how many plan B's Coryphius had his researchers develop?

The Venatori, the Red Templars, the Rebel Mages, the Grey Wardens, the Eluvians, Florianne...

That's really about the extent of his planning. Once you've foiled it all he goes apeshit. If he had more Plan Bs he would have used them before that point. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

12-Jun-2018 01:13:55 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2018 01:16:20 by NotFishing

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