RuneScape Forum Archive | Your antithesis god?

Chaos Lupus

Posts: 9,633 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Cthris said :
Mazakon said :
Chaos Lupus said :
Here it is.

Q: Zamorak says he is "deeply remorseful" about what happened to the Chaos Dwarves. What was his intent with the power he gave them, if it all went according to plan? Was it simply an offer of power to those willing to fight for his cause, or something else?

Mod Ollie: "in return for their unwavering devotion I gave them power beyond any they had known before" - He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause, but by cursing them he caused them to eventually become corrupted, mindless beings which was clearly not a consequence he originally intended.

To me, this reads as quite similar to what happened with Seren and her elves, where they both tried to give their followers something and a side effect of unwilling loyalty was created. Of course, they were for very different reasons and purposes.

But how does your interpretation of the text account for this quote? " He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. "
Does the quote not imply that unwilling loyalty was the purpose and that they were not his followers?

Zamorak did force the chaos dwarves into servitude, that doesn't mean that was his intent. Like Ollie said, he meant to create a powerful, loyal force, not mindless zombies. Intent/=/results.

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 15:59:45

Mazakon

Posts: 3,288 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Cthris said :
Mazakon said :
Chaos Lupus said :
Here it is.

Q: Zamorak says he is "deeply remorseful" about what happened to the Chaos Dwarves. What was his intent with the power he gave them, if it all went according to plan? Was it simply an offer of power to those willing to fight for his cause, or something else?

Mod Ollie: "in return for their unwavering devotion I gave them power beyond any they had known before" - He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause, but by cursing them he caused them to eventually become corrupted, mindless beings which was clearly not a consequence he originally intended.

To me, this reads as quite similar to what happened with Seren and her elves, where they both tried to give their followers something and a side effect of unwilling loyalty was created. Of course, they were for very different reasons and purposes.

But how does your interpretation of the text account for this quote? " He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. "
Does the quote not imply that unwilling loyalty was the purpose and that they were not his followers?

The part before that where it says "in return for their unwavering devotion", which could imply they were already fiercely loyal to him. Plus, as Moia has stated, he rewards those who are loyal.

The pirates of the Granblue set sail!

01-Nov-2016 16:02:30

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yeeeaaahhh....that's questionable. I mean, how did he expect them to be forced into loyalty without being mindless servants? You can't have one without the other. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

01-Nov-2016 16:11:26 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 16:12:14 by Hazeel

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mazakon said :
Cthris said :
Mazakon said :
Chaos Lupus said :
Here it is.

Q: Zamorak says he is "deeply remorseful" about what happened to the Chaos Dwarves. What was his intent with the power he gave them, if it all went according to plan? Was it simply an offer of power to those willing to fight for his cause, or something else?

Mod Ollie: "in return for their unwavering devotion I gave them power beyond any they had known before" - He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause, but by cursing them he caused them to eventually become corrupted, mindless beings which was clearly not a consequence he originally intended.

To me, this reads as quite similar to what happened with Seren and her elves, where they both tried to give their followers something and a side effect of unwilling loyalty was created. Of course, they were for very different reasons and purposes.

But how does your interpretation of the text account for this quote? " He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. "
Does the quote not imply that unwilling loyalty was the purpose and that they were not his followers?

The part before that where it says "in return for their unwavering devotion", which could imply they were already fiercely loyal to him. Plus, as Moia has stated, he rewards those who are loyal.

Then why are all the Dwarves be cursed if the "Blessing" was only applied to the loyal dwarves?

Did you see this quote? I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause

Does this quote not say he intended to create a powerful and loyal force implying that the force lacked power and loyalty beforehand?

01-Nov-2016 16:13:01

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

^ Have you considered that "In exchange for undying loyalty" can be read the same way you might read the following? "In exchange for being locked in cages, zoo animals are given far more food than regular animals."? Is there anywhere in my own sentence that infers consent? If not, then how can you infer consent from the dwarves?

Chaos Lupus said :

Zamorak did force the chaos dwarves into servitude, that doesn't mean that was his intent. Like Ollie said, he meant to create a powerful, loyal force, not mindless zombies. Intent/=/results.

"I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause"

Seems like it was his intention to force loyalty no?

01-Nov-2016 16:14:48 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 16:33:28 by Cthris

Chaos Lupus

Posts: 9,633 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Yeeeaaahhh....that's questionable. I mean, how did he expect them to be forced into loyalty without being mindless servants? You can't have one without the other.

Cthris said :
Chaos Lupus said :

Zamorak did force the chaos dwarves into servitude, that doesn't mean that was his intent. Like Ollie said, he meant to create a powerful, loyal force, not mindless zombies. Intent/=/results.

"I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause"

Seems like it was his intention to force loyalty no?

Nothing in the quote says that he intended to force them to serve him. He makes a pretty clear distinction between what Zamorak intended and what the result was.

Besides, you can't force loyalty, that's sort of vital to the entire concept. If Ollie meant that Zamorak intended to enslave them, why not just say that?

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 16:37:32

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chaos Lupus said :
Besides, you can't force loyalty,

Funny, I recall saying that to Zaros in the second age....he just laughed and told me to conquer some more villages. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

01-Nov-2016 16:44:53

Ancient Drew

Posts: 5,732 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

There is a difference between forcing loyalty in general and doing it deliberately. For example the aura effects that Zaros and Seren have; they can't control it, and the curse on the dwarves was probably something Zamorak couldn't help either. In the case of Zamorak, it may have overloaded at the same time as his usage of the Stone to burn Forinthry. It might explain the survival of the chaos dwarves there and the black unicorns, assuming the latter were infused with his power too. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

01-Nov-2016 16:57:14

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

For me...it's most certainly Armadyl at this point. He's failed at everything he's tried to do, and on top of that preaches for "freedom" when his societies are one of the least free. We see this lack of freedom reflected in the afterlife for his followers. Afterlives are shaped by the lives of the followers...in Armadyl's you literally lose your sense of self. This is a reflection of just how "free" Armadylean society must really be. While I don't think Bandos had a point when he said Armadyl was a hypocrite for going to war, he certainly is a hypocrite for stealing the freedom to even have any sense of self.

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

01-Nov-2016 17:19:39

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Chaos Lupus said :

1) Nothing in the quote says that he intended to force them to serve him. He makes a pretty clear distinction between what Zamorak intended and what the result was.

2) Besides, you can't force loyalty, that's sort of vital to the entire concept.

3) If Ollie meant that Zamorak intended to enslave them, why not just say that?

"I expect that his intentions were simply to create a ... force that would be loyal to his cause"

1) Is it not true that when you intended to create something you also intend to force it into existence? Following that, if Zamorak intended to create something, then he intended to force something? If so, then wouldn't the following also be true,

"If Zamorak intended to create loyalty then he intended to force loyalty into existence. To force loyalty into existence is to force loyalty. Then would it not logically follow that if Zamorak intended to create loyalty he then also intended to force loyalty."

2) You've read the Zaros memory crystals yeah? Did you read the part where Zaros' aura forces those close to him to become loyal to him?

3) Did I ever say Zamorak intended to enslave them? I could be wrong but didn't I only imply he intended to force loyalty where there was none before?

Is forcing loyalty the same thing as enslaving? If the government forces loyalty on the people by imposing punishments for disloyalty, then is the government enslaving the people? Are you enslaved by the government?

01-Nov-2016 17:30:05 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 17:32:54 by Cthris

Forums

Your antithesis god?