RuneScape Forum Archive | There Was No Naragi "Genocide"

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Aeldari said :
Hazeel said :
At the very least . There's no way a God War was resolved sooner than that. According to Guthix the God wars lasted for centuries, so at least more than one yes.

We've already established that Naragi centuries =/= Gielinor centuries. All we know is that it was a period of time that Guthix considered meagre, and not enough for a Naragi born before the war to grow into adulthood before it ended.

With Tuska involved I'd be honestly surprised if things weren't resolved relatively quickly. She doesn't mess around. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

28-Jan-2017 23:56:32 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2017 23:57:08 by Wahisietel

Aeldari

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Wahisietel said :
We've already established that Naragi centuries =/= Gielinor centuries. All we know is that it was a period of time that Guthix considered meagre, and not enough for a Naragi born before the war to grow into adulthood before it ended.

Have we established that to be factual? In addition what do we know of Naragi life spans? If Guthix did consider a few centuries to be a meagre amount of time, would that not mean that the Naragi are incredible long lived?

~Lore Hound~

/~Enticed Clan~

29-Jan-2017 00:01:44 - Last edited on 29-Jan-2017 00:02:23 by Aeldari

Nov

2023

Lego Miester

Posts: 35,339 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I went ahead and reread all the transcripts we've got on this stuff:
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Transcript:The_Death_of_Chivalry
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Transcript:Kaigi%27s_journal_(complete)
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Transcript:The_World_Wakes
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Guthixian_memories

I'm definitely still sticking with what I've already said. Most notably I bumped into "I sought to make amends" in the "My Greatest Shame" speech in DOC, assuring us that he at least tried to defend the naragi from the threat of the other gods before ultimately failing and having to abandon them to save his own skin.

I'm still convinced this falls in line with my "My Greatest Shame" headcanon on the headcanon haven thread where he is negotiating peace with Nakigi, Narix commences plan "two wrongs make a right" and lures Tuska to Saradomin, Askroth is destroyed and Nakigi dies, ultimately giving Saradomin the change of heart to try to protect them to make up for the harm he's caused. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
OSRS Lore: Xeric
Slepe Tight - Slepe Lore

29-Jan-2017 00:09:50 - Last edited on 29-Jan-2017 00:32:23 by Lego Miester

Hazeel

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Wahisietel said :
We've already established that Naragi centuries =/= Gielinor centuries.

Irrelevant. He's speaking to a Gielinorian human, not a native to Naragun. He's using our measurement of time.

Wahisietel said :
All we know is that it was a period of time that Guthix considered meagre, and not enough for a Naragi born before the war to grow into adulthood before it ended.

1) Centuries are a really short period of time. Only a human with very limited scope would see it as significantly long.

2) So far, most of the long lived races develop very slowly or have shown no signs of childhood at all.

Wahisietel said :
With Tuska involved I'd be honestly surprised if things weren't resolved relatively quickly. She doesn't mess around.

Yes she does. She's a mindless beast that the Airut are using to hunt for treasure. Skargaroth is the more viscious one since he's actually fighting with his heart set on killing the opponet. If there's a deity who's going to take their time in a war, it's Tuska--because she doesn't care who lives or dies, she's just a trained pet digging for goodies. The other Gods are fuelled by hatred and dogma. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

29-Jan-2017 00:46:32

Raleirosen

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Hazeel said :
Obviously RS isn't going to adhere to every obscure physics rule, and magic can explain away a lot of things, but it still follows basic rules...stuff like gravity keeping us grounded and temperatue getting warmer as you move close to a star seems pretty simple IMO. XD Considering that stars and their effect on anima are both totally undefined in RuneScape cosmology, no, I don't think either of those are safe assumptions. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

29-Jan-2017 07:46:39

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I think "a MEAGRE few centuries" is likely a reference to human years as Guthix was speaking to a human. Guthix is speaking of the war as being short in comparison to say Gielinor's God Wars. I think the point was to say: "this was only a minor conflict by divine standards and look what happened".

Saradomin should have attempted to lead Tuska away, it would have prevented a God War on that planet. The other god involved was reportedly hunting Tuska and if the two had teamed up against her (thousands of years ago when she had gorged on far less anima) they may well have been able to defeat her. Airut would remain on the planet of course but they were really a secondary threat that could have been dealt with afterwards.

Certain definitions could say that Saradomin did not commit genocide, merely burned afew cities and then failed to save the people from Tuska. That said of all the beings involved capable of rational thought he is more responsible for the destruction than any other.

But the worst issue is that he did not learn anything from this experience. he would go on to risk further destruction and death for his cause. That he felt regret means nothing, regret is a logical reaction to the deaths of millions with no advantage gained by your cause (even emotionless Zaros would probably express regret in such circumstances).

Saradomin would argue that he did this and everything else he does to make the world safer. In this he only shows himself to be less wise than Zamorak. Both have caused suffering in order to help others, one fights the threats of today, the other prepares you to face all future threats. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

06-Feb-2017 22:38:50

Vardan

Posts: 1,237 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'm surprised this stirred up so much debate. Of course there wasn't a "genocide". Saradomin wanted to conquer them and forcibly convert them, not eradicate them all out. That certainly isn't much better but it doesn't meet the criteria for a genocide any more than Zaros' war against the Desert Pantheon.

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

07-Feb-2017 01:28:55

Dec

2020

Tettidesa

Posts: 3 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people[...] in whole or in part" - Wikipedia. 'Only' killing the ones that don't convert is still genocide, killing over religious convictions, or lack thereof dont exactly make for extenuated circumstances. Furthermore the timeline suggests that Saradomin was effectively hunting down Naragi before Tuska arrived, and due to the fact that Skargaroth arrived due to hunting her, you can't really blame the casualties on war, considering the war hadn't started yet.

11-Feb-2017 02:33:45

Aug

2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'd been meaning to respond to particular posts on Page 1 shortly after they were made (as I had very clear responses in mind near-immediately), but I was feeling tired and lazy, procrastinated, and that just made the thread grow and grow. >_>

Well, I'm not sure I was expecting this much discussion (though I'm glad for it, obviously) but I should maybe finally get around to making those replies.

Firstly:

@ Saint Jexel

Having slept on it, I decided to keep this thread around after all. Mine is more specific and targeted, and frankly knowing my persistence is likely to live longer than yours. ;P No offense.

@ Hguoh

Responding to your second post on Page 1 specifically. Now that it's sat a good long while and you've hopefully had a chance to think over it, I'd like to point out - Aren't you kind of proving my argument there? Healthorg's idea of them having to relocate wasn't a hinge-factor, it was a concession to your side of the debate. If you don't believe they had to relocate, then this (at least, in my eyes) would seem to back what I'm saying here:

They were able to actively host refugees despite their close proximity to Askroth, meaning that Saradomin was not going around hunting and killing them. Maybe you have a point about Guthix not being able to see Askroth pre-destruction from his home. I'll amend that, if you like. However, he was still able to see Saradomin's base and the later events - Suggesting that Saradomin should be able to see *him* as well (not to mention the streams of refugees going to this presumably accessible spot).

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

12-Feb-2017 02:52:26

Aug

2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@ Hazeel

Actually, while the naragi may certainly not have been an *especially* warlike race, the regular player concept that they were all peaceful farmers doesn't seem to hold water either. When looking at the dead figures in Guthix's memory of Naragun, we're told these were Guthix's friends and family, and that "As the gods' battles became more fervent, innocent citizens must have become accidental casualties, eventually wiping out Guthix's race altogether." IE, they weren't all "innocent citizens".

We've seen plenty of other evidence to that effect as well. The balance test in The World Wakes involves, amongst other things, resource wars and naragi warlords. From the Tribute to Guthix, we see that the cities did have armies to assemble against Saradomin. In Kaigi's journal, we see that they not only have warriors at the time, but that they named the airut after legendary naragi warriors.

It's long puzzled me that people have misinterpreted this particular bit of The World Wakes; it seems evident to me that Guthix's friends and family specifically no more rule out naragi warriors than the existence of Lumbridge farmers rules out the existence of human armies. IE, from all the evidence, it's my clear conclusion that the naragi are probably a "balanced" race similar to humans (not overly warlike, but not overly peaceful either) - explaining why this is the type of race Guthix favored when populating Gielinor.

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

12-Feb-2017 02:56:21 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 03:05:50 by William Witt

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There Was No Naragi "Genocide"