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There Was No Naragi "Genocide"

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Lego Miester
Nov Member 2023

Lego Miester

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It's pretty obvious Saradomin didn't genocide them. We find a temple with his symbol on it in the Naragun memory, for crying out loud.

Some of them joined him. The ones that actively tried to fight him would've been killed by his superior forces, but he did the show of force with the intention of getting them to worship him, not to exterminate them.

So that leaves us with 3 categories:
-fought against him and died
-joined Saradomin
-refugees like Guthix

We don't know what Saradomin did regarding the refugees, but I'd guess he either didn't know about them or didn't care. "Well they're free to join me whenever they wish. Considering I now control all the major settlements and resources, that shouldn't take long ."

Giras said :
Just because Saradomin fled before finishing the job doesn't mean he wasn't hunting them across their world. From Guthixian Memories #3: "
The giant's army
was marching downriver. Our cities were assembling armies of their own, but I didn’t see how they would stand a..."

Exactly. He came to Naragun with a powerful army and would've given an ultimatum. "If you surrender, you can join me. If you fight me, you're going to lose. "

You have to think of his actions and perspectives so far. He perceives himself as honorable and just. "The good guy." Even when he's being harsh or cruel there'll be some way he can justify that to himself. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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27-Jan-2017 04:53:36 - Last edited on 27-Jan-2017 05:01:56 by Lego Miester

Healthorg

Healthorg

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Hguoh said :
Healthorg said :
Guthix's community was close enough that they had to relocate to a refugee camp - if they were not harboring said refugee camp within its territory to begin with. We can not prove the latter, but common sense says that they were close enough to the carnage near Askroth to have to relocate.

Your entire correction post relies on the idea that Guthix's community had to relocate, but the memories never state this. Rather, given that Guthix learned of Askroth's destruction from the bands of Naragi fleeing the city, it appears that Guthix's community became a refugee camp as they accepted refugees.

Nice try though.

And as rebuttal, you are incorrect in your assumption that the post relies solely on the relocation aspect. I find that I always need to spell things out for people and I had no room left for this tidbit, but the foundation is back up there anyway.

It is still possible, and far more likely, for the initial claim to be an error of distance, as a location need not be seen on the horizon at all to be considered close enough to be "outside of Askroth" - or, in other words, making Askroth the closest major city to Guthix's community.

Said another way, the community would not have been "within sight" by means of actual sight, but close enough to be accessible; as in, "act as one of possibly a few primary refugee camps" and/or "be within slightly under a few days travel at most on foot " - as well as receiving a constant flow of news regarding Askroth without diverting the flow of refugees and losing out on news.

Let's also mention the fact that the camp was eventually able to see Saradomin's fortress on the horizon - I am leaning on the assumption that the fortress need not have been that big, given the history of Saradomin's fortresses.

If Askroth were any farther, the structure would have to be stupidly and exorbitantly large. A tower, really.

27-Jan-2017 04:57:12

Padomenes

Padomenes

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Hazeel said :
Saradomin was at war for hundreds of years before the other Gods even showed up. How many years did it take Zamorak to kill and banish the Cthonians? 20. The Cthonians are powerful creatures bred for battle. The Naragi are not a warrior race. How many do you think were truly alive after hundreds of years? ...Honestly, the only reason there were survivors that long to begin with is because they hid.

Tuska deserves blame for destroying the world, Naragun, but it's obvious that its people, the Naragi, would be nearing extinction before she even showed up. Saradomin kill them during the war--but honestly, given how one sided this is--Saradomin and his armies VS a ragtag gang of farmers--"massacre" feels like a more appropiate term.

Genocide, battle, whatever you wanna call it...the result is the same...Saradomin killed off the Naragi race over the course of several hundred years. Hardly different than when Zamorak killed off the Aviansie. There is no room for debate on whether it happened or not--only whether it was justified. Or the fact he only killed the ones who fought back when he was taking territory. Civilians were likely spared.

Genocide requires an intention to kill off the entire race, some of the Naragi chose to join him which even means possible they fought together with him against the other ones that were fighting him.

27-Jan-2017 04:58:46 - Last edited on 27-Jan-2017 04:59:50 by Padomenes

Lego Miester
Nov Member 2023

Lego Miester

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Healthorg said :
If Askroth were any farther, the structure would have to be stupidly and exorbitantly large. A tower, really.

This is Saradomin we're talking about. If he could bend the laws of physics to make it so tall it could be seen across the entire planet he would. Huge, white narginian marble, embedded with sapphires the size of houses... Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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27-Jan-2017 05:06:50

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Lego Miester said :
It's pretty obvious Saradomin didn't genocide them. We find a temple with his symbol on it in the Naragun memory, for crying out loud.

Which means he destroyed their buildings and put his own temples there. We knew this already.

Lego Miester said :
So that leaves us with 3 categories:
-fought against him and died
-joined Saradomin
-refugees like Guthix

And then there's those who he hunted down. Even the refugee camps weren't safe. Whether you prefer to believe he enslaved the refuees or killed them is up to you, but they weren't left alone. This is why Guthix didn't send Aagi to one, they were running out.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to suggest that any of them joined him. In fact, it would be appalling if this were true given that there have been no references of this. I'd be completely blown away if Guthix didn't mention how Saradomin took advantage of his people and made them worship him (Guthix would see it this way) or how Naragi were pitted against each other, depending on who joined what side. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 07:22:48

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Hazeel said :
Which means he destroyed their buildings and put his own temples there. We knew this already.

And then there's those who he hunted down. Even the refugee camps weren't safe. Whether you prefer to believe he enslaved the refuees or killed them is up to you, but they weren't left alone. This is why Guthix didn't send Aagi to one, they were running out.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to suggest that any of them joined him. In fact, it would be appalling if this were true given that there have been no references of this. I'd be completely blown away if Guthix didn't mention how Saradomin took advantage of his people and made them worship him (Guthix would see it this way) or how Naragi were pitted against each other, depending on who joined what side.

To quote Guthix from his more recent batch of memories:

"Guthix: I was reminded of something Saradomin once told me...that he has never desired war, but we must fight to preserve peace. If we do not stand before the swarm, it will consume us. 'Some must die so all can live. Sacrifices must be made for the greater good.' Now those I swore to protect die in my name. They suffer for my mistake. It is a painful lesson, the kind of knowledge that forever changes one's ideals. I am finally beginning to understand the necessity of what happened on Naragun."

It's in regards to the Elder Sword's destruction being what opened the rift to the Void that the Void Pests come from.

I'm pretty sure if Saradomin was hunting the Naragi down to extinction, Guthix would not say "I am finally beginning to understand the necessity of what happened on Naragun".

This more suggests the arrival of Tuska woke Saradomin up to the big picture, and he tried to unite the Naragi against Tuska. Like Guthix did with the Void Knights to stop the pests and the Saradomin did the Icyene to fight their foe. Obviously, it didn't work (Saradomin was driven away), but still.

27-Jan-2017 08:13:42

Hazeel

Hazeel

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..her sleep had been uneasy. Aagi slept with a frown, clutching her butterfly net. My heart ached to see her - my daughter, yet a child, who had lived her meagre few centuries in times of war. How long had it been since I'd heard her laugh? I considered sending her away with the refugees, more of whom left each year, but they were running out of places to go.

This was before Tuska came. He was definitely hunting them down. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

27-Jan-2017 17:43:32

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Giras said :
Are you honestly trying to say that Guthix "understood" the "need" for Saradomin to kill his people?

Of course not, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying if Saradomin was just murdering his people all willy-nilly, Guthix would never have said that. No, I'm thinking Saradomin and the Naragi united after Tuska proved to be nothing but a rampaging beast of destruction, and Saradomin was going all Spock with "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

You know, people risking their lives in the hope that Tuska can be driven out so the Naragi race can be saved. It didn't work obviously, but that's what I think the intent was.

Even if it didn't work in the end in Naragun, Guthix learned from that experience when founding the Void Knights, the few risking their lives in Guthix' name in order to save the lives of the rest of the people living in Gielinor.

"Now those I swore to protect die in my name. They suffer for my mistake. It is a painful lesson, the kind of knowledge that forever changes one's ideals. I am finally beginning to understand the necessity of what happened on Naragun."

What Guthix learned from Saradomin's time on Naragun wasn't any initial cruelties or arrogant outbursts from lack of worship...he learned from the good Saradomin tried to do in order to fix his mistake.

Saradomin has never tried to defend the fact that he handle the Naragi incident badly from the beginning. Just that he learned from that mistake, and tried to make amends, even though he just suffered defeat from his trying.

Guthix is just the type of god to take what good he can from another, even if the other person/god is flawed in other ways.

27-Jan-2017 21:45:46

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