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Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

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Too many responses to quote them all, I'll just make a new post:

It's true Armadyl was more naïve back then, but for Saradomin to convince him into genocide? There's a difference between naivety and puppetry. My point was that even if he was subservient to Saradomin, Armadyl seemed far too pacifistic to condone, let alone take part in, a genocide.

As for Bandos, I wasn't 100% sure when the Zarosian Genocide was in comparison to Bandos' arrival. My point there was that Bandos wouldn't really care what he's doing in battle, as long as he gets to enjoy the bloodshed and battle. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

09-Jun-2016 06:25:53

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Sepulchre said :

It's true Armadyl was more naïve back then, but for Saradomin to convince him into genocide? There's a difference between naivety and puppetry. My point was that even if he was subservient to Saradomin, Armadyl seemed far too pacifistic to condone, let alone take part in, a genocide.

Honestly, a fair amount modern research into social pyschology, criminology, and sociology show that it is not nearly as hard as you think to drive ordinary people into doing horrible things, including genocide, murder and torture. Off the top of my head I can give you a fair amount of examples, such as the actions in WW2, My Lai, Rowanda genocide, Stanford Prison Experiment, Milgram's experiment, Eugenics movement, Salem Witch Trials, residential schools. All of these things were committed mostly by normal people, people who hated violence and hurting others just as much as the next person (in regards to the two experiments i mentioned, both groups of test subjects were screened for ordinariness.) yet they were able to be pushed into doing things that they would have sworn maybe a few days earlier that they would never ever do.

Even if Armadyl was the pacifist pacifist to ever pacifist, I would bet that under the right social circumstances, that he would engage in genocide, and honestly the third age, along with what we know about the social interactions between Saradomin and Armadyl looks to be the exact right circumstances.

You can look this research up yourself if you like, check out Milgram's experiment, Asch experiment, or the Standford Prison experiment. While your at it, I suggest looking up the some of the theories behind the cause of crime such as Drift theory, Differential Association, Anomie theory, as well looking at some of the theories behind social movements such as framework theory. It's really quite interesting how illusionary our own morality is under the right social pressure.

09-Jun-2016 07:47:40 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 07:50:33 by Cthris

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

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Further proof that Saradomin is evil. He coerced Armadyl into committing genocide.

#StopSaradomin A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

09-Jun-2016 09:51:22

William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

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Hguoh, I'm afraid I don't see how armies/conquest translate into "genocide", or the Zarosian Empire would have quite a bit of blood on its hands. Wahisietel on the previous page is an adept lorehound, and I think unbiased on these matters. (He's spoken critically of Saradomin before, and is himself godless)

Hmm, Kastor. Student of psychology, or sociology? My dad was a professor of Sociology. I feel like the cases you're listing are slight misrepresentations - The Asch conformity experiment wasn't even an issue of morality, let alone genocide. I'm fairly certain I myself would fall into line there, considering the real question of "conformity" being tested there was "am I right about the answer to this question or not". - And even then, checking online, I find that the majority of responses *still* trusted their judgment and went for the correct answer to the question, even when everyone else around them was giving the wrong answer.

I've also read about Milgram's experiment before, and the test subjects were assured that the electric shocks they were (supposedly) giving wouldn't do any permanent damage. When I read about this in the past, I felt (in my amateur opinion) that this biased the study. Surely it would, at least in part, demonstrate people's willingness to trust Yale University researchers to know what they're talking about? And even then, the subjects showed *extreme* stress/suffering at inflicting pain upon another person, having to be prodded into it. Giving someone electric shocks is a far cry from genocide, and even that seems to have been a struggle for them.
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

09-Jun-2016 18:41:37 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 18:58:47 by William Witt

Lego Miester
Nov Member 2023

Lego Miester

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William Witt said :
Varrock Museum artifacts seem to suggest Senntisten was Zamorakian for a while (taken over by Zamorakians?) - The city of Saranthium came later.


I suppose that implies the truce quickly dissolved after Senntisten fell and the two groups immediately went to fighting over the territory.

"You betrayed me, Saradomin. You threw away our alliance the moment your knife could find my back!"

(From the Dishonor Among Thieves transcript. Which, I might add, also has some of the best Bandos lines in the game.) Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
OSRS Lore: Xeric
Slepe Tight - Slepe Lore

09-Jun-2016 19:16:40 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 19:26:40 by Lego Miester

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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@Kittyphantom

Technically my major is an Honors in Social Science with a specialization in Criminology so I guess you could say I am a student of both of them.

Anyways, yes the Asch experiment originally was not a test of morality. However, would you not agree that it is fair to say that we base our morality around the reality as we perceive it. What the experiment showed is that social pressure can warp our perception of reality, and thus it would warp how we apply our morality. Are you familiar with group-think behavior? There are many examples for why this type of social behavior is very dangerous. Literal wars have been started thanks to group-think behavior. That is why I included it as a good source to check out.

For the record, you are correct in saying that the majority of the time people did not conform to the group. However the results indicated approximately one third of the time the subject did conform, and that in total 75% of the subjects conformed to the wrong answer at least once. In the control group the total subjects who gave wrong answers were less than 1%. That's a huge difference, wouldn't you agree?

As for Milgram.

" Surely it would, at least in part, demonstrate people's willingness to trust Yale University researchers to know what they're talking about ?"

You've just highlighted the entire point of the experiment. The point was to see how far people would go when pushed by someone trustworthy, or in a position of reasonable authority. You have to keep in mind that this entire experiment was designed to replicate the relationship between German soldiers and their Government during WW2.

Continued...

09-Jun-2016 19:39:33 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 19:44:38 by Cthris

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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What the actual experiment simulated was the manslaughter/murder of another fellow human being. So it's not really that far away from genocide. Yes the subjects showed great distress early on in the experiment, yet they didn't stop, even when they knew that they could be "killing" the man. Even more horrifying is that even after the man had "died", the majority subjects continued shocking the "corpse".

What this shows is that whether or not they seemed to be having a difficult time with it is irrelevant to what kind of actions an ordinary person will take under the right kind of social pressure.

Thanks for the questions though, I hope I cleared up your beliefs that I am misrepresenting the studies.

09-Jun-2016 19:44:11

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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William Witt said :
the Zarosian Empire would have quite a bit of blood on its hands.
Whether or not the Zarosian Empire had lots of blood on its hands is kind of irrelevant since we are dealing with a campaign that lasted centuries. The vast majority of the individuals in the empire that would have had blood on their hands would have been long since dead, bar the mahjarrat, Nex and a few other stragglers.

Really what was the point in conquering Sennistien besides to wipe them out? The Zarosians had been on the defensive for centuries, suffering the fall out from a civil war. Azzandra was locked up, Nex as well, Char has been out of the picture for a long time, and Zaros was thought to be dead. Sliske probably wasn't even there, and the majority of the remaining Zarosian mahjarrat were priest, not generals.

It's unlikely it was even a conquest mission. Like you said, it was a Zamorakian city after the fall of Senniestien. So obviously Saradomin didn't care as much for conquering the land as he did for killing the people.

09-Jun-2016 20:14:35

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