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Zulkir

Zulkir

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Tempra said :
Sepulchre said :
Further proof that Saradomin is evil. He coerced Armadyl into committing genocide.

#StopSaradomin copy/pasting paladins rhetoric doesn't make you sound any smarter.

She doesn't sound any smarter? Little man If you hear a voice when you read her posts then I think you have a slight illness of the mental variety.
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Inconsistent Completionist

09-Jun-2016 21:08:59 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 21:09:20 by Zulkir

Hazeel

Hazeel

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1) I'd say all the Zarosians had blood on their hands since millitary service was required.

2) They definitely resisted the other Gods.

3) The Zarosians were exterminated by Saradomin and Armadyl. Zamorak converted most and killed the rest with the others. What do you call the extermination of a particular group?

Hint:

Genocide: The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

09-Jun-2016 21:15:52

Ancient Drew

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Doesn't anyone think that all of the bad stuff that Saradomin did, as well as any personality defects, might come from his being human and his upbringing in Teragardian culture? In my opinion, all the ascended gods still have mortal mentalities. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

09-Jun-2016 21:22:55

Tempra
Nov Member 2018

Tempra

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Zulkir said :
Tempra said :
Sepulchre said :
Further proof that Saradomin is evil. He coerced Armadyl into committing genocide.

#StopSaradomin copy/pasting paladins rhetoric doesn't make you sound any smarter.

She doesn't sound any smarter? Little man If you hear a voice when you read her posts then I think you have a slight illness of the mental variety. im mentally ill for calling someone out on their trolling? and you got mental illness from that one comment? im not the one who needs to question their sanity "little man" ;)

09-Jun-2016 21:35:13

William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

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Cthris said :
While we are on the topic, doesn't AoG feature Saradomin wiping out Zarosian's in his campaign. I know its semi canon, and even non - canon for some, but it's still worth mentioning I think.

Paddewwa mission (I've looked into this before) implies forcible conversion, but not wiping them out.

I have to disagree with your conclusions about the Asch experiment and that it might translate into things like this - I still feel like it's rather a large leap. That sometimes, people (and not even the majority of times) second guess themselves about the length of lines on a drawing suggesting that they're vulnerable to being pressured into genocide?

On the Milgram thing, I meant that they were told that they *weren't* killing the man behind the wall. They may have been given reason to fear/suspect otherwise, but the Yale researchers' reassurance that they weren't causing any permanent damage is what I think might be an issue.

I'd also like to apologize for using the word "misrepresent".

And to both you and Hazeel - By "quite a bit of blood on its hands", I meant that if the presence of armies/conquest by necessity implies genocide, then the Zarosian Empire must be guilty of a fair amount of genocide itself, owing to its involvement in quite a bit of conquest. Real life history is also filled with conquests, and I'd suggest most of them weren't "genocides" either. As for why they might want to conquer Senntisten? (And the text Hguoh quoted does use the word unconquered) I think Zaros addresses that himself in Fate of the Gods - Saradomin sought his secrets. Senntisten, considering its importance in the empire, must have had quite a few of those.

And Hazeel, I'm arguing that they didn't exterminate the Zarosians.
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

09-Jun-2016 21:41:55 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 21:45:23 by William Witt

Zulkir

Zulkir

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Tempra said :
Zulkir said :
Tempra said :
Sepulchre said :
Further proof that Saradomin is evil. He coerced Armadyl into committing genocide.

#StopSaradomin copy/pasting paladins rhetoric doesn't make you sound any smarter.

She doesn't sound any smarter? Little man If you hear a voice when you read her posts then I think you have a slight illness of the mental variety. im mentally ill for calling someone out on their trolling? and you got mental illness from that one comment? im not the one who needs to question their sanity "little man" ;)

Your outrage in the fc suggests otherwise :p
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09-Jun-2016 21:42:45

Wahisietel
Oct Member 2005

Wahisietel

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Regarding the Zarosian "genocide", the only things that Saradomin is said to have done are capturing the Zarosian's land (Eblis), attacking Senntisten at the same time as Zamorak (Book of the Gods), imprisoning Nex (GWD). There's literally nothing in the game that says Saradominists went around and killed innocent Zarosian citizens while kicking puppies. Just that he took land and imprisoned Nex, which Zamorak, Bandos, and Armadyl also did.

I really don't get what's up with this huge double standard you guys have towards Saradomin? You go around bashing him for stuff that pretty much every other god did, or at least something comparable (or even worse in many cases).

Saradomin destroyed a city?
Zamorak destroyed a continent, Bandos destroyed a planet.

Saradomin took Zaros's land?
So did pretty much every other god. Zaros himself was set on worldwide conquest before the betrayal, and had already invaded much of the Kharidian Desert.

Saradomin ripped the wings off an Icyene for (supposedly) refusing to go to war?
Zaros performed experimentation on Icyene, Aviansie, Demons and Vampyres, Seren (accidentally) cursed the elves with death unless they were close to her, Zamorak cursed an entire race of people because he wanted an army.

Armadyl's pretty much the only god that doesn't have a huge list of atrocoties to their name, besides being a moron and sending a nearly extinct race into a war against a vastly superior foe that he logically should not have won. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

09-Jun-2016 21:58:14

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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@KittyPhantom

In regards to the Milgram experiment. The subjects were not reassured that they were not causing irreparable harm. The "scientist" in the room was only instructed to absolve responsibility and provide justification. Like I said, they were specifically meant to feel like they were killing someone.

FWhat the Asch experiment tells us is that people will conform to actions even if they know that that particular action is incorrect.

To clarify, I don't believe I said that the Asch experiment proves that social pressure can cause people to commit genocide, there are far better example than Asch's experiment. I said two things:

1) That it would be worth while to check out if one is interested in how social pressure can cause people to do things against their own morality.
2) That the experiment proves that social pressure can warp our sense of reality, and thus the morality we apply to it.

From Asch's research we were able to develop the theoretical work behind Group Think behavior. Group think behavior is dangerous because it prevents groups of people from thinking logically about the actions they take, and thus it can harm lots of people.

The only major difference between Asch's experiments and real world scenarios is that in Asch's experiments, subjects were question about self-evident matters. If one third of the time people will knowingly preform the wrong action when the right answer is self-evident, imagine how much more vulnerable people will be when the answer is not self-evident.

I can even give you real world examples. There are hundred of papers written about group-think in regards to the U.S. war with Iraq, or the U.S. and the Bay of Pigs, or the U.S. and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Continued

09-Jun-2016 22:33:26

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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William Witt said :
By "quite a bit of blood on its hands", I meant that if the presence of armies/conquest by necessity implies genocide, then the Zarosian Empire must be guilty of a fair amount of genocide itself, owing to its involvement in quite a bit of conquest. Real life history is also filled with conquests, and I'd suggest most of them weren't "genocides" either. As for why they might want to conquer Senntisten? (And the text Hguoh quoted does use the word unconquered) I think Zaros addresses that himself in Fate of the Gods - Saradomin sought his secrets. Senntisten, considering its importance in the empire, must have had quite a few of those.


Whether or not the Zarosians commited genocide as well doesn't matter to this discussion. Bringing it up is actually a logical fallacy calle an Ad Hominem.

For the record I'm not Zarosian so I have no problem in saying that Zaros committed genocide. In fact, I'm pretty sure in the Zaros above the lore pod cast Mod Osborne even says that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure Char was the only one of her race. How else can that be interpreted other than by believing that Zaros somehow engineered the genocide of her race.

I would argue that a huge amount of real world conquests are genocides. For example the deconstruction of the Native American Culture is often cited as such. In said conquest, we saw numerous examples of forced conversion, such as residential schools.

Expanding on this example, the British Government, and later Canadian and American Governments systematically tried to eradicate their culture, believing it to be savage, and ungodly. Quite a few tribes have gone extinct due to their actions.

Like Saradomin they seeked to bury the existence of Native American Culture, as well as procure the land, and skills that they had. Like the Zarosians of the third age, the Native Americans were not a threat. They were only defending themselves.

09-Jun-2016 22:49:48 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 22:50:50 by Cthris

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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As far as I am concerned, genocide, and conquest are almost synonyms. Anything that seeks to dismantle an entire culture, regardless of whether or not its the end game, or the means to an end, is genocide.

Wahisietel said :

I really don't get what's up with this huge double standard you guys have towards Saradomin? You go around bashing him for stuff that pretty much every other god did, or at least something comparable (or even worse in many cases).

Okay hold up. I don't think you know what your talking about. I encourage you to go through my profile. Look for this so called double standard. I suspect you will find that I "bash" all the gods.

Regardless, if I do have double standards, it is irrelevant to the current assignment of deducing whether or not Saradomin committed genocide, so why bring it up?

09-Jun-2016 22:59:58 - Last edited on 09-Jun-2016 23:04:10 by Cthris

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