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Anenemus

Anenemus

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Balustan said :
Nerevarine x said :
Raleirosen said :
Nerevarine x said :
Example is: The Dragon Riders were almost extinct (5 of them left) and Zaros refused to cure their infertility. He wanted them to fight one more war.

That would be a factual statement from the lore correct? It says so in the book 'The Last Riders'. Being almost extinct isn't mentioned but that's what it is when only 5 dragon riders remain. Zaros would not cure them.

Then people outright deny this...it makes no sense.
Zaros never "refused" to cure their infertility (your word choice implies that he verbally said "no" when confronted with the issue). He simply never got around to it, leading to most of the Dragon Riders defecting as a result of his negligence. Also, that's not what the word "extinct" means. In fact I believe they still aren't extinct, since at least one remains (or at least could remain, can't remember if the mods have confirmed whether or not the last Dragon Rider is alive).

But yes, that would be a fact. You can use it as evidence to support your opinion (i.e. Zaros is evil because he didn't fulfill his promise), but that does not make your opinion factual.

Zaros didn't do it. They asked him and well....he said fight one more battle and i'll do it afterwards.

That's a refusal to do it now, while they are almost extinct.

And yes almost extinct does mean that. When you have 5 members of your race left and you can't reproduce.

Well since the race is getting a solution storyline with the Dragonkin you are apparently wrong. One seems to be enough in Runescape. In fact you can bring a race back with no living members in Runescape.

In fact it seems that Zaros saved the race in the end and took one with him to Freneskae.

Whoa, d'you have evidence for that claim that he took a Dragon Rider with him to Freneksae?

21-Dec-2013 06:42:06

Stevie Z
Jan Member 2013

Stevie Z

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Nerevarine x said :
According to the Guthixian memories (memory 2), a magical disturbance appeared near a Naragi city named Askroth. Guthix comments by saying it was suspected to be: "A portal to another world! The diviners were arranging a welcoming committee."

We can see the Naragi were going to represent their race and welcome whoever may arrive. Saradomin came through the portal and demanded to be worshipped. Soon after, war broke out when the Naragi refused, which many lore users blame on Saradomin.


Kaigi's Journal offers another, differing perspective. We learn that the Naragi rallied behind two leaders:

"Some have been following Narix, who suggests we take arms and fight back."

"Others have been following Nakigi, who believes both sides are to blame for this war, and a compromise should be reached with Saradomin."

The key information here is that Nakigi and his Naragi followers believed Saradomin was not solely responsible for the war - both the Naragi and Saradomin were to be held accountable.

This is evidence for the Naragi provoking Saradomin or projecting some sort of hostility towards him initially, doing something inconsistent with welcoming him, an act more serious than merely refusing to worship, which incited his wrath upon them.



Counter points are matched by color:

How is that not Saradomin fault for the warfare?
Before he arrived, it was a peaceful world.


So by the Naragi welcoming Saradomin to their world with friendliness and open arms is considered "provoking"?
I do believe the demanding of worship, then attacking them when they refused, was the first act of hostility.
Demanding them to follow his rule is the prime definition of dictatorship, which oddly enough has the synonym of Tyranny; Tyranny-cruel and oppressive government or rule


I can guarantee if this was any other god, you'd blame that said god for extinction. Wattson main btw.

21-Dec-2013 21:04:43

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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^ If you re-read that passage you'll see what I'm referring to.

I'm saying there's 2 different perspectives on the issue, The Guthixian memories state the Naragi were sending a welcoming committee for Saradomin.

Kaigi's Journal tells us that Nakigi and his followers, who were all Naragi, believed BOTH Saradomin and the Naragi were responsible for the war.

So the information from Kaigi's Journal indicates that the Naragi must have done something inconsistent with welcoming him, something hostile or threatening.

Otherwise, why would Nakigi and his followers believe they were, in part, responsible for the war?

They must have a good reason to think that.

22-Dec-2013 04:37:04

Cybernet377
Aug Member 2008

Cybernet377

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Nerevarine x said :

Otherwise, why would Nakigi and his followers believe they were, in part, responsible for the war?.

Otherwise, why would Saradomin believe that he was entirely responsible for the war?

"I was arrogant and they tried to kill me first" sounds like a much better justification than "I was arrogant before, but then I realized that murder isn't always the best option."

22-Dec-2013 05:22:34

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Cybernet377 said :
Nerevarine x said :

Otherwise, why would Nakigi and his followers believe they were, in part, responsible for the war?.

Otherwise, why would Saradomin believe that he was entirely responsible for the war?

"I was arrogant and they tried to kill me first" sounds like a much better justification than "I was arrogant before, but then I realized that murder isn't always the best option."

Are you trying to say that Kaigi's Journal is a lie and Saradomin felt he was entirely responsible for the war? lol

I acknowledge all three pieces of lore - the Guthixian memories, Kaigi's Journal and Saradomin's perspective.

You are not doing that.

It's clear Saradomin was remorseful and found the Naragi incident to be his greatest shame, something which haunts him even now.

That wouldn't however, disprove that the Naragi played a role in starting the war, provoking him or being hostile (not just refusing to worship). Kaigi is adamant that both the Naragi and Saradomin can be held accountable for the war.

He must have had very good reasons to believe the Naragi were partly to blame for what happened to them. Refusing to worship a God isn't really consistent with that.

22-Dec-2013 07:54:25 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2013 07:57:19 by Nerevarine x

Delemis

Delemis

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Nerevarine x said :
Cybernet377 said :
Nerevarine x said :

Otherwise, why would Nakigi and his followers believe they were, in part, responsible for the war?.

Otherwise, why would Saradomin believe that he was entirely responsible for the war?

"I was arrogant and they tried to kill me first" sounds like a much better justification than "I was arrogant before, but then I realized that murder isn't always the best option."

Are you trying to say that Kaigi's Journal is a lie and Saradomin felt he was entirely responsible for the war? lol

I acknowledge all three pieces of lore - the Guthixian memories, Kaigi's Journal and Saradomin's perspective.

You are not doing that.

It's clear Saradomin was remorseful and found the Naragi incident to be his greatest shame, something which haunts him even now.

That wouldn't however, disprove that the Naragi played a role in starting the war, provoking him or being hostile (not just refusing to worship). Kaigi is adamant that both the Naragi and Saradomin can be held accountable for the war.

He must have had very good reasons to believe the Naragi were partly to blame for what happened to them. Refusing to worship a God isn't really consistent with that.

Kaigi is not adamant about anything related to that, he simply spoke of a group who believed so.

Jussayin The ending of the words is ALMSIVI

22-Dec-2013 10:38:29

Edcy

Edcy

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'Ello Nerevarine. What are you doing? You say you acknowledge all those three pieces of lore pieces aforementioned, but for reason unknown you seem find only one and one only of them true to you. Why? What is there more clear in Saradomin's perspective than in Guthix's memories or Kaigis' journal?

I bet none of them are 100% accurate and honest really. None of them are too specific on anything and so to say, it's up to examiner's mind to leave specifics into being unknown or pull own conclusions that may ultimately lead into false beliefs.

22-Dec-2013 11:46:28

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Edcy said :
'Ello Nerevarine. What are you doing? You say you acknowledge all those three pieces of lore pieces aforementioned, but for reason unknown you seem find only one and one only of them true to you. Why? What is there more clear in Saradomin's perspective than in Guthix's memories or Kaigis' journal?

I bet none of them are 100% accurate and honest really. None of them are too specific on anything and so to say, it's up to examiner's mind to leave specifics into being unknown or pull own conclusions that may ultimately lead into false beliefs.

No, I didn't say one if them is true.

The Guthixian memories, Kaigi's Journal and Saradomin's perspective together must be recognised and discussed - I've done this in the thread. Posts 1-5.

The Naragi issue is quite ambiguous, but Kaigi's Journal, along with Saradomin's thoughts on the incident in the Death of Chivalry, give us a unique insight into it, instead of purely Guthix's viewpoint.

I've defended Saradomin while acknowledging all the lore pertinent to the incident.

22-Dec-2013 11:56:02 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2013 12:16:09 by Nerevarine x

Edcy

Edcy

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You've started to defend Saradomin from unnecessary matters, begone with it and prevail with only necessities. Let outsiders think what they do about Saradomin's falses, and embrace his goodness is all that matters. It only slows down the progress!

22-Dec-2013 13:22:09

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