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The Defence of Saradomin Thread is locked

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Pupppy

Pupppy

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Sorry, I didn't read the thread carefully, just going to say my impression over Garlandia and Saradomin:



1. first, lets remember one thing: not all icyene are warriors, nor all of them follow Saradomin into foreign war: many faithful keep onto the world of New Domina, as farmers or citizens of the Saradomin City.

So, I really doubt they all get their wings ripped off when they refuse to come to war. I guess, recruiters and the god put a bit of shame on those people, saying how they are selfish, leaving to the others the job of maintaining their peace, order, and even building of a new better home at Gielinor.

They'd always leave, however, a space for them to regret it, to reach a recruiter and join the army ranks for redemption. Or not, would be fine as well, because they need to ensure their world remains mainly saradominist, not to let the rebelion succeed in their plans.



2. so, I guess Garlandia was not a faithful, and a few (or many did already know that). There are two options:

- either she had still stayed loyal to the main civilization, just trying to get people open their eyes that they do not need to idolater Saradomin and follow his order. So she was invited, together with her faithful friends, to enjoy the banquet

But still, rumors of her 'sacrilege' had spread, reaching the ears of high ranks of the armies. They tell that to Saradomin, and he'd confront her cowardliness: one thing is to not like him; but another is to be ungrateful for everything he had indirectly given her: the wealth and knowledge. Saradomin would at least expect her to keep her 'selfishness' to herself, or even give a bad excuse, just to not break the order of her whole society he had helped to build.


- or, cont.

12-Dec-2013 17:51:29 - Last edited on 12-Dec-2013 17:57:54 by Pupppy

Pupppy

Pupppy

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- or she had already gone further: she had already joined the local rebels. By so, she wasn't even member of the society, she wasn't really invited to join the banquet. But still, she found a way to infiltrate it, so she could gather vital information, or perhaps tell the icyenes how they did not need Saradomin.

But, her disguise was discovered, as obviously the members of the army know each other; and yet they did not know her, making her thus an infiltrated spy. News would reach Saradomin, and with pleasure of finding the rat, he'd shot out across the whole room, so that everybody would grab attention and find out the spy inside their banquet there.

Then, he'd ask what he had already known the answer: that she'd refuse to join him. That would then be proof that she was the spy, the rebel, for everyone invite to his banquet was supposed to be a friend and follower of his. With his suspicion confirmed, he'd perform the punishment to the enemy that had dared to enter his own party, and leave her to suffer for her audacity, and silliness.

12-Dec-2013 17:51:37 - Last edited on 12-Dec-2013 17:56:54 by Pupppy

Peterr
Jun Member 2023

Peterr

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I believe this thread to be a level-headed and appropriate depiction of bias for many reasons. While using numerous threads of evidence to support your point, the constant justification for Saradomin's mistakes are so incredibly one-sided that I cannot attribute it to anything else but trying to find a reason for his mistakes where there is none. Allow me to elaborate:

This is evidence for the Naragi provoking Saradomin or projecting some sort of hostility towards him initially, doing something inconsistent with welcoming him, an act more serious than merely refusing to worship, which incited his wrath upon them.


A huge blue giant with a crown and a demanding presence comes forth upon your planet and demands immediate and blind worship. Do you A.) Welcome him with open arms with cookies and milk in hand or B.) question this clearly misinformed and misguided beings intentions and establish diplomacy *before* grovelling? It makes no sense to argue that because the Naragi's adopted a cautious nature that was cause for Saradomin to lay siege to the people *unless* your coming from a viewpoint of bias.

Saradomin learnt from his mistakes with the Naragi and is the only one capable of telling us why he decided to stay and duel Tuska. The reason he provides, as we've already investigated, was to seek redemption.

More of an oversight than anything, there to my knowledge was no "clock" provided as to how much time had lapsed between Saradomin's siege of the Naragi homeworld and his "protection" of the Naragi against Tuska and Skargaroth. Therefore, it canbe argued that this was just filler to blindly establish Saradomin of capable of receiving redemption. It's fair that the Naragi didn't know of his change in attitude.

Continued on next post..

12-Dec-2013 18:07:53

Peterr
Jun Member 2023

Peterr

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I have to strongly disagree with this assertion. The crown archival may have been detected by Tuska, but Saradomin is not responsible for the conduct of another God, he cannot be held answerable for the actions of another being

Saradomin is clearly and irrefutable solely responsible for any sieges or attacks on the Naragi people and he is solely responsible for the Obliteration of the Naragi people, regardless of him changing his mind half-way through. The Crown Archival led other Gods to the Plane. Saradomin offered no justification for his actions on the Naragi because there is none. He is both directly and indirectly the cause of this genocide because of his arrogance and naive nature. The Gods would not have shown up had Saradomin not led them there, unless they by luck found the plane on their own. There is no defense for Mass genocide rooted from arrogance and power. Saradomin is an *immortal being*, he isn't young when put into perspective. he's lived for hundreds and maybe thousands of years - plenty of time to develop a good set of morals. No excuses.

That being said, It's not to be argued that your points are completely invalid - there lies merit in the form of protection of Saraodomin's reputation. However it also shouldn't be argued that any of the points I have highlighted excuse or pardon Saradomin - if anything it further harms his reputation for his followers protect his mistakes vehemently and don't accept them as what they are.

Hope I was able to provide a sound counter-argument to your clearly well thought-out thread ;)

Cheers, Chusid

12-Dec-2013 18:13:30 - Last edited on 12-Dec-2013 18:15:55 by Peterr

sTReTCh1028

sTReTCh1028

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^ I support this post :P Too many blindly follow a self-proclaimed wisest and most moral of all the gods, but rarely step back to consider the moral ambiguity presented by his own actions. Saradomin was a human before godhood, and that still shows today in his extremely short-tempered and egotistical flaws and tendencies.

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sTReTCh1028
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The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity

12-Dec-2013 18:56:05

Digitaltramp

Digitaltramp

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Peterr said :
There is no defense for Mass genocide rooted from arrogance and power. Saradomin is an *immortal being*, he isn't young when put into perspective. he's lived for hundreds and maybe thousands of years - plenty of time to develop a good set of morals. No excuses.


Saradomin did not commit genocide, he did however inadvertently start of a chain of events that led to the demise of the Naragi and their homeworld which he himself admits and takes full responsibility for. also at this time he had only recently achived godhood and as such was not hundreds of years old yet alone thousands. This unfortunate chapter in Saradomins history aswell as his attempt to right the situation by defending the Naragi from Tuska are a part of the journey Saradomin took from being a "flawed human" as you put it and saw him become the God that he is today.

12-Dec-2013 20:26:42

Autumn Elite

Autumn Elite

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Nerevarine x said :
Don't publicly embarrass him.

I'm very confident there would be a different response had she consulted him privately and with less hostility.


But Saradomin started the conservation in front of everyone at the banquet. Surely she had to reply? The reply itself "I don't want to fight at all" wasn't exactly outrageous. As we were not there, we are unsure how it occurred but it seems a very extreme response to a simple sentence.

12-Dec-2013 20:48:32

A C P L
Jan Member 2023

A C P L

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@Talelon
He did commit genocide (zarosian extermination). He deliberately targeted the Zarosians and with the help of Zamorak went on with the Zarosian extermination.
and yes he did lead the chain of events in the naragi incident. I dont think it was deliberate due to it being an act of anger.
I make videos.

12-Dec-2013 20:53:41

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Nerevarine x said :


I'm not talking about if Zaros is evil or not, if you read my replies you'd notice that. The facts I stated are from the game and Jagex Mods.

I've given you two examples several times that you can't grasp.

The Book "The Last Riders" directly says the Dragon Riders turned to Zamorak when the Empty Lord would not uphold his bargain.

The Book directly says there were 5 dragon riders left after all the wars (near extinction) they asked Zaros to cure their infertility and he didn't do it. Undeniable fact.

These things aren't opinion.

Mod Jack's quotes on the Zarosian Empire are not my opinion..He is a storyline writer for Zaros, a very reliable source and he has said it several times: humans suffered in conditions almost comparable to slavery.

Of course this is Zaros' fault, you have a pathetic excuse for claiming it isn't. It is his Empire and therefore it is his responsibility.

Whether you want to consider manipulation and slavery evil or not in your own mind is opinion, NOT the facts I present. Then again, if you're trying to justify such acts as slavery without a good reason it doesn't make your argument very credible, even though you cry out "we all have different opinions".


Dude i'm not saying the Zarosian empire is a opinion, what Mod Jack sad about it is as close to fact as you can get without it being in game, for goodness sake i wrote an entire thread about it, what is opinion is whether its evil or not, your opinion is that he is evil. Besides, who are you to decide whether my reasons are good or not.

If you had provided me a good reason to why Zaros is evil, then i would have no choice to agree with you, but you haven't, so don't agree with you


Also we have no proof of slavery, you have read the quotes, and you know this.

I'm done with this conversation, so there is no need to reply, please learn that just because other people opinions differ from your own, doesn't make them wrong.

12-Dec-2013 20:55:40

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