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Dennorak
Jul Member 2020

Dennorak

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Unicornz pwn said :
Dennorak said :
Everyone go to page 22 and read the posts there by Niht Scinnre! Best 3 posts ever
I want to see Nerevarine's response! Though there is probably about a 65% chance he ignores it
Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

09-Dec-2013 03:03:46

Unicornz pwn
Dec Member 2023

Unicornz pwn

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Dennorak said :
Unicornz pwn said :
Dennorak said :
Everyone go to page 22 and read the posts there by Niht Scinnre! Best 3 posts ever \nI want to see Nerevarine\'s response! Though there is probably about a 65% chance he ignores it
Yep, he ignores all the good points, just like my 6-Point masterpiece.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

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09-Dec-2013 03:41:26

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Changes to the "Song From Before the War" section, in regards Niht Scinnre's comment about golem limbs.

Added more lore about Varmen's Notes and adjusted explanations to reflect the evidence.

In addition, there's no evidence to link Saradomin to the denial of golem limb delivery to humans, they were created in Uzer by the Icyene.

Saradomin was battling Zamorak and trying to vanquish evil, I'm confident he cannot oversee every single issue in the war.

09-Dec-2013 06:53:01 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 08:43:00 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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As for Niht Scinnre other comments...

1. Elder Tasgall implied: "Your icyene-blooded sorceress enchanted them."

Mazakon uttered in response: "You should be glad your village is in Saradomin's territory. Do you know the Army of Zamorak's recruitment tactics?"

I answered this in the thread. Mazakon knows it's a recruitment tactic , a tactic is a plan or course of action to achieve something - so Mazakon is saying yes, the intent for Elspeth is to persuade the crowd to enlist .

Admitting to a recruitment tactic is not admitting to Elspeth having enchanting abilities. That is an illogical jump.

Elspeth is there to influence the humans into enlisting, she has an amazing voice which Mazakon wants to use (I admit this), but it does not mean she has the ability to enchant them and control their decisions through seduction.


2. I think you need to review your history actually.

Elspeth sings about 3 things.

"She sang a song from the point of view of a soldier's sweetheart, about how proud she was of her man, and how she knew Saradomin would send him home safely."

"She sang about a soldier dying on the battlefield and looking back over his service, thinking how proud he was to be dying for Saradomin rather than growing old."

"She sang about the Icyene commanders waiting at the Front, knowing that they could achieve a decisive victory if only a few more good men came to their aid."

It's obvious she isn't focusing on romantic or seductive singing, there's several differently themed songs .

She does sing from the view of a soldier's sweetheart and how proud she was of him, but she also sings about the battle the Icyene are fighting and how they need humans to help them. Her next song concerns a dying soldier on the battlefield reminiscing about his service to Saradomin's army and the pride he felt.

Pride appears to be a central construct in the songs, not seduction.

09-Dec-2013 06:53:06 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 07:29:16 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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3. The author fights bravely and charges the ripper demon, stating:

"I would like to say that my faith in Saradomin sustained me, but in that moment I think it was Elspeth who kept me moving. I would fight for her."

So how exactly does this imply he was enchanted? It doesn't.

In the "Song From Before the War" Elspeth and the author develop a close relationship, which the rest of the human villagers did not - I omitted this because it's rather trivial and unimportant.

If anything that's a testament to the human spirit of fighting for one another and never giving up.


4. Most of your other posts are criticisms of Saradomin "wanting to protect others" but "invading other planets and realms to do so" which you say contravenes his goals and is circular reasoning.

Wrong. Saradomin needs to acquire elder artefacts, spread across the universe, to harvest the power for himself.

With power comes the ability to shape the realms and planes as you see fit. In this case, he will build a universe founded on order and harmony, where no Gods will intervene other than mighty Saradomin.

He needs supporters for his cause, civilisations and people to fight for him in this epic struggle.

As for Zaros, we know he was a threat to Saradomin's people.

Saradomin wanted to build a society where humans were not treated in near slave-like conditions. Yes, that's right, Mod Jack (storyline writer for Zaros) has confirmed on multiple occasions that the majority of humans suffered greatly in Zaros' Empire, in appalling economic conditions and were quote "unsafe, unhappy and unprosperous".

The very fact Saradomin was human before he ascended to godhood would make this seem even more likely, as he would have sympathy for humans.

09-Dec-2013 07:06:09 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 08:43:27 by Nerevarine x

Lego Miester
Nov Member 2023

Lego Miester

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Why is it so hard to just see the icyene (even just this one icyene ) as speciesist? I don't think "SING, USELESS HUMAN WOMAN!" or "this is why there are no humans in high command" or talking Elder Tasgall to accepting the slow death of his village by treating him like a child were subtle! Do we need Zilyana to walk around in a blue "Icyene Pride" t-shirt? :@

I don't think it's Saradomin being speciesist, like you've mentioned he was a human, and has been shown with people like Owen to treat them with dignity. I think it's just the golem limbs being a limited resource, so they were only used on priority targets. Icyene living longer, being stronger, and taking up most of the leadership positions would make them priority targets.

edit: you did take into consideration that second paragraph. Sue me mr.(c) "5 pages of reserves", I miss things. :@

"The author offers theories as to why Elspeth's singing was so elegant, but does not ever mention feeling an incompetence to make his own decisions."

When have you heard the dialogue " I felt awfully mind controlled! "? It was a combination of them knowing nothing but war all their lives, good old fashioned seduction (they describe that dress in vivid detail... ), and possibly just a hint of Saradomin blessing her. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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09-Dec-2013 08:46:01 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 08:54:42 by Lego Miester

Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Well, when you think about it, "sing useless human woman" doesn't sound too bigoted to me.

It's not much of an insult, Sergeant Mazakon contradicts himself in his own sentence.

He wants Elspeth to sing to defeat the demon because she isn't useless which I found funny.

I take it as the circumstances of the situation were so dire, he shouted that out. Clearly, whether Mazakon wants to admit it or not, he didn't see her as useless.
____________

In relation to the High Command refusing to add humans to positions of significance, well I feel it's justified, I elaborate on it in the thread.
____________

Mazakon is obviously more authoritative than Tasgall, I wouldn't say he was bigoted in their discussion at the village though.
____________

Regarding golem limbs, I changed the section due to discovery of new lore, I still offer some valid explanations that need to be considered.

____________

I believe there's no good evidence to suggest the humans were seduced or enchanted, in fact her songs don't primarily focus on seduction, lust or romance at all, more so pride.

09-Dec-2013 08:53:11 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 10:59:02 by Nerevarine x

Lego Miester
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Lego Miester

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Nerevarine x said :
I believe there's no evidence to suggest the humans were seduced

Just a moment...

She had shed the grey cloak, and beneath it she wore a white dress cut to show off her figure. There were some catcalls from the audience as she walked forward, but everyone went quiet when she plucked her cithara and started to sing.

Watching the beautiful icyene-blooded woman, hearing her perfect, piercing soprano voice, I think I fell in love with her right then. I think every young man in the audience did.

She then sings a song about how proud this theoretical woman (that she is singing from the perspective of, for obvious reasons, in a low cut dress) is that these men would fight and die for her (and Saradomin).

Nope, no seduction here. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
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Slepe Tight - Slepe Lore

09-Dec-2013 09:00:38 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 09:11:41 by Lego Miester

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