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Saradomin and Guthix*spoilers*

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Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Darc

They just re-used/recolored those models because it was the easiest way to go. If it was a generic greater demon, they wouldn't have used a butcher. And they're not all equals, being a Tsutsaroth doesn't mean you're immune to Kharshai being able to incapacitate you. We don't exactly have any frame of reference other than this, where he clearly incapacitated and killed a Tsutsaroth.

Better question: Why isn't your personal motto a quote from the Jungle Book?
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 01:25:22

Darc Oejder

Darc Oejder

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Yeah maybe you are right he could have been a weak tsutsaroth.

Hahahah the law of the jungle is cool so maybe my motto should be one. That being said I don't like depending on others if I can help it so I am more like lone wolf so the law of the jungle won't really fit me.
There is joy in combat that can't be found anywhere else.

20-Jan-2017 02:31:06

Padomenes

Padomenes

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Darc Oejder said :
Hazeel said :
Darc Oejder said :
If the majority joined Zamorak why did he team up with Saradomin against the remaining zarosians.

Because they shared a common enemy and Zamorak was naive enough to think Saradomin wouldn't betray him. That's the only reason he needs. He could have 95% of the Empire on his side and it'd still make more sense to join with Saradomin and fight the remaining forces rather than squabble amongst each other.

In Zemoregal's memory it is said that when Zamorak returned to Gilienor he attacked ALL the gods invading the empire and he tried to take the empire from the loyalists. That and the fact that Zamorak kept preaching chaos while Saradomin had been the god of order for eons means that they were enemies from the beginning and they joined forces against the empire none the less. Why would you join your worst nemesis if the situation isn't bad? Claiming Zamorak had 95% of the empire and still joined with Saradomin is ridiculous.

We know it took centuries to conquer the Zarosian citys and fortresses so saying most zarosians joined Zamorak quickly is grossly exaggerated opinion of Zamorak's appeal.

At least Zamorak is true to his philosophy, Saradomim had no such excuse to invade the empire and destroy all who didn't join him. He had no choice, it was war and if your troops got attacked by armed resistors it was kill or be killed. The ones who were passive and worshiped Zaros who he saw as "nothing more than a dead god" were likely left along in the orders.

But aside from that you should know alot of Zarosian humans converted to Saradomin's side because they believed in Order. And just for this, Zamorak(ians) saw the Saradominist faction, still do today as a "Blue Zaros" even if he lead better.

Saradomin wanted to re-purpose its system, not destroy the empire: https://twitter.com/JagexJack/status/822095473859264513

20-Jan-2017 05:02:21

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Keep in mind that the "armed" resistores were sick and old people (Book of Zaros) and evidence suggest they were all killed.

Azzanadra: It was not long after Zaros was banished, and a communication portal constructed, that I became trapped in that pyramid. At that time, Senntisten was still exuberant and well defended.
Azzanadra: Goodness only knows what befell the troops and citizens, but we can safely assume they didn't give up without a fight.
Player: How do you know that?
Azzanadra: When defenders submit, their city is often taken over, but when they fight to the death, their city is typically destroyed.

Not really sure why Saradomin would even continue his attack on the city once he found out it was just filled with sick and old people who obviously can't wage war on his own empire, thus didn't pose a threat, and obviously had no interest in joining him.

20-Jan-2017 05:12:33 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 05:15:50 by Cthris

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
The former states that the Zamorakians held the palace until Azzanadra's attack, the latter states that they fled after Zamorak's departure and Azzanadra's attack is what drove them from the city.

They did flee after Zamorak's departure, there's just a gap of time there. The important thing about Zemo's memory is that it doesn't specify just how much time passes between events. The only thing that is stated is that they lost their leader and were subsequently forced out of the capital by Azzanadra.

Chaos Lupus said :
This clearly isn't accurate as we know of at least one other who was willing to fight. His death occurring relatively early on doesn't change that.

Except he didn't fight. He broke something and was captured. Supporting the rebellion isn't the same as actually fighting in it. Additionally, given how all known Tsutsaroth demons utilized K'ril's model, it is entirely possible that the demon in question was another variant of demon (possibly Alyaroth (they seem to come in quite a few variations) or some unknown variant much like the Furies are).

Chaos Lupus said :
And of course the biggest lore-fail of all, Zemouregal's knowledge of the Stone.

We now know that Guthix attempted to destroy the SoJ. Is it not possible that Zemouregal's dismissal of fairy tales was more toward the idea of the Stone still existing rather than it having existed at all?

Alternatively, given the notable disparity in how much was known about the Stone and the Staff, is it not possible that Zemo was dismissing the claims of the Stone's power by misattributing the power he observed to the Staff?

20-Jan-2017 05:20:07 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 05:22:42 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Honestly, I think the biggest fail is that the stone clearly wasn't there during the memory in CoM...and of course there's no reason for Zamorak to bring it.

Considering mortals don't seem to have the best capability for holding on to the stone's power (we only got some xp, V wasn't able to ascend (it mainly healed his body), and Lucien dragged the thing around with him), Zamorak might have needed to bring it with him to top off on it's power before the fight.

As for it not being there, I just imagined that he left it just outside of the room (after dispatching the few remaining guards in the palace) so that none of the opposition could try to get power from it during the fight.

20-Jan-2017 05:26:53

Darc Oejder

Darc Oejder

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Padomenes
I do not follow any of the gods so I try to be neutral however much of what you say is your opinion not something comfirmed.
Saradomin is a better leader than Zaros is only a claim Sara made himseld in SE so you can't take it as a fact.
No one forced Sara to try and take over the empire "peacefully" unless they resisted. We know each region was led by a pontifex aka leader in the church and if the area is unstable it is lead by a legatus like Sucellus. The empire was ruled by Zaros's high ranking followers so Saradomin couldn't take it peacefully and war was the only option so it can only mean he intended to claim it by force.
There is joy in combat that can't be found anywhere else.

20-Jan-2017 09:44:00

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

That's not how it's written. It's Zemouregal's memory, it's his recollection of how things happened, if there had been a gap in time that would have been worth mentioning rather than running off a list of what happened immediately afterward, then transitioning to a later time within the same paragraph. It could be that it was simply poorly written, but it's a contradiction as is.

The memory doesn't state that only Thammaron and Zebub actively fought in the rebellion, it says "...and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion. " The butcher who was killed was clearly going along with it. And even if that contradiction didn't exist, there was another one fighting for Zamorak in the throne room anyway. And the idea that they weren't butchers is ridiculous as it's based on nothing and they very clearly use butcher demon models.

No, because that's not what fairy tale means. And he did know that the Staff was used to kill a god...
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 14:05:52

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
That's not how it's written. It's Zemouregal's memory, it's his recollection of how things happened, if there had been a gap in time that would have been worth mentioning rather than running off a list of what happened immediately afterward, then transitioning to a later time within the same paragraph. It could be that it was simply poorly written, but it's a contradiction as is.

Or, as it is a memory, it glazes over the events that he considers less important (you know, like Akthanakos's memory).

Chaos Lupus said :
The memory doesn't state that only Thammaron and Zebub actively fought in the rebellion, it says "...and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion. " The butcher who was killed was clearly going along with it. And even if that contradiction didn't exist, there was another one fighting for Zamorak in the throne room anyway. And the idea that they weren't butchers is ridiculous as it's based on nothing and they very clearly use butcher demon models.

The only demons that showed up in the memory were Zebub, Thammaron, Mal'koss, and Mol'zhar.

Zebub and Thammaron clearly use K'ril's model, and we know they are tsutsaroth.

Mal'koss doesn't actively fight in the rebellion, he just messes some of the empire's stuff up (he also doesn't use a butcher demon model, he uses Kal'ger's model).

Mol'zhar, the only other demon present, is seen fighting to defend Zaros in the memory, making him one of those loyalist demons that flipped sides at Zaros's defeat (plus, he uses Yk'lagor's model, not a butcher demon's).

20-Jan-2017 14:23:47 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 14:29:36 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
No, because that's not what fairy tale means. And he did know that the Staff was used to kill a god...

Believing the stone to have been destroyed would somehow not make stories of it's continued existence seem like fairy tales?

Believing the Staff to hold much more power than the Stone would somehow not make rumors of the Stone's power seem like fairy tales?

20-Jan-2017 14:26:03

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