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Saradomin and Guthix*spoilers*

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Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Their memories aren't even written the same way. Akthanakos' doesn't transition from a running account of one scene to another at the end of the same paragraph, it's an account of how the Empire changed over the years. Again, it could just be poorly written, but that's the way it is as things currently stand.

"The wit and imagination to fight". That's kind of important here. And watch the cutscene again, there's clearly another butcher demon fighting against Mol'Zhar.

If he believed it had been destroyed he would simply have said that, instead he passed it off as a fabrication. It's pretty clear that at the time that dialogue was written, the intention was for the Stone to be a legend in the minds of most who had heard of it. And no, knowing how powerful the Staff is would make tales of the Stone's power much more realistic and believable.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 14:55:55

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
Their memories aren't even written the same way. Akthanakos' doesn't transition from a running account of one scene to another at the end of the same paragraph, it's an account of how the Empire changed over the years. Again, it could just be poorly written, but that's the way it is as things currently stand.

Except that Zemo's memory does imply some time passage within the same paragraph (at least more than each event happening immediately after the other. Looking closely, events described in the section of the memory about the events during and after the coup start off as instantaneously after one another, but he steadily begins describing events in less detail that take up more time beginning in the very sentence you two are so hung up on:

Moments later, those fools Armadyl and Saradomin appeared, witnessed the carnage, claimed the fallen staff and stone, and vanished again. Denied our leader, the rebel army fell back from the capital, although many former Zarosians flocked to our banner as news of what had occurred spread.

Chaos Lupus said :
"The wit and imagination to fight". That's kind of important here. And watch the cutscene again, there's clearly another butcher demon fighting against Mol'Zhar.

The wit and imagination to 'actively' fight, which Mal'Koss did not.

The other demon in the cutscene that Mol'Zhar is fighting is not using a Butcher Demon model. Much like Mal'Koss, the demon uses Kal'Ger's model.

20-Jan-2017 15:11:43 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:28:13 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
If he believed it had been destroyed he would simply have said that, instead he passed it off as a fabrication. It's pretty clear that at the time that dialogue was written, the intention was for the Stone to be a legend in the minds of most who had heard of it. And no, knowing how powerful the Staff is would make tales of the Stone's power much more realistic and believable.

For the first, Zemo has quite the superiority complex. Him telling Sharathteerk that his information was nothing more than fairy tales could be an example of him talking down to his minion in order to raise himself up. Besides we didn't see the full conversation (we had to sneak around and catch up to them), making it entirely possible for Zemo to have told Sharathteerk that the Stone had been destroyed only to have Sharathteerk (rightly) bring it up again because of the intel he had.

And as for knowing the Staff's power would make the Stone's power more realistic, my point is that Zemo could have easily attributed the power he observed to the Staff. As such, he'd consider most tales of the Stone's power to merely be an attempt to direct attention away from the item that he believed truly had the power and was responsible for what happened: the Staff.

Yes, the dialogue was very clearly written during a time when the Stone was meant to be a legend in even Zemo's mind, but it is written in such a way that Zemo knowing about it isn't entirely impossible. It's something we have to deal with (like Bandos not coming out to stomp us after we ruin his chosen commander plan).

20-Jan-2017 15:25:28

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Assassination of a god-emperor tends to get around pretty quickly. But for the third time, it could just be poorly written.

Except he clearly did have the wit and imagination to. He just didn't get very far. And we know that the Infernals weren't present at the betrayal, they're just built exactly like the Tsutsaroth, at least their current models.

But no information that we actually have implies that. Of course it's not impossible, it's just not based on anything. It seems like you're grasping at straws to try and connect the dots.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 22:18:27

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
Assassination of a god-emperor tends to get around pretty quickly. But for the third time, it could just be poorly written.

Or, much as was the style with the other memories, he glossed over the parts he didn't care as much about.

Chaos Lupus said :
Except he clearly did have the wit and imagination to. He just didn't get very far. And we know that the Infernals weren't present at the betrayal, they're just built exactly like the Tsutsaroth, at least their current models.

Except he didn't fight, and it never indicated that he had any intent to fight. Again, all he did was break some stuff.

And yes, there's no way for Infernals to have been present there, but that does not serve as any confirmation that the demons using the Infernals' models were Tsutsaroth. As I already explained, it is entirely possible that they are Alyaroth, which already have quite a few variants, or some other unknown tribe of demons (like the Furies are).

Chaos Lupus said :
But no information that we actually have implies that. Of course it's not impossible, it's just not based on anything. It seems like you're grasping at straws to try and connect the dots.

Or, you know, I prefer to come up with a reasonable explanation rather than shouting 'lorefail' when there isn't an explicit contradiction.

20-Jan-2017 22:33:58

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Which memories? Certainly not Akthanakos'.

He was a traitor hiding in Zaros' throne room, criticizing Kharshai's loyalty to Zaros with Zamorak's entourage minutes away. You can ignore the wording of the memory all you want, that doesn't change what it says.

Of course it's not impossible, just improbable. They clearly weren't tormented demons and they have the build and hooves of a Tsutsaroth, but we could always just ignore that.

Except you're disregarding all probable explanation in favor of twisting things to fit a number or other possible explanations with no actual basis.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 23:35:56

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
Which memories? Certainly not Akthanakos'.

Mizzarch's memory is the most blatant, example when it downplays the church's discrimination in teaching the populace. Palkeera's memory skips over the pacts Zamorak made with the Avernic. Sliske skips over the invasion of Gielinor in his. Azzanadra's completely skips over events that occur between each 'entry' in his (plus there's the whole 'automatically assuming the voice in his head is Zaros' bit). Bilrach states that the other tribes followed the rule of strength, but neglected to mention that the tribe had an unfavorable opinion of the rituals. Enakhra apparently has wonderful memory when it comes to what Zamorak said to other Mahjarrat, but makes absolutely no mention of how they responded despite having been there to witness the conversations. And then there's Akthanakos who, while quick to sing the city's praises, utterly neglected to mention any of the issues with the city.

Chaos Lupus said :
He was a traitor hiding in Zaros' throne room, criticizing Kharshai's loyalty to Zaros with Zamorak's entourage minutes away. You can ignore the wording of the memory all you want, that doesn't change what it says.

One can't criticize and be dissatisfied with Zaros and be too afraid/cautious to openly rebel against the being in power? Disagree all you want, but sabotage does not constitute an intention to participate in the fight.

21-Jan-2017 00:32:47

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Chaos Lupus said :
Of course it's not impossible, just improbable. They clearly weren't tormented demons and they have the build and hooves of a Tsutsaroth, but we could always just ignore that.

And again, the demons we actually know to be Tsutsaroth used K'ril's model in the quest. The fact that the others used different models indicates to me that they were some other race of demon. Any similarities to Tsutsaroth is not much different than the similarities in appearance between greater and lesser demons (or humans and elves).

Chaos Lupus said :
Except you're disregarding all probable explanation in favor of twisting things to fit a number or other possible explanations with no actual basis.

And the only basis for your claim of it being a lorefail is that it doesn't fit your understanding of the situation whilst disregarding alternative explanations that allow all the sources to remain canon (again, much like how they gave Bandos the tendency to avoid battles he wasn't sure he could win to explain why he didn't just stomp us on Yu'biusk despite being the big bag war god). The only exception to my approach is when there is an explicit contradiction (ex: Palkeera's journal originally stating Azzanadra mortally wounded her).

21-Jan-2017 00:39:51 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 01:08:58 by Hguoh

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