RuneScape Forum Archive | Genocide by wing?

Padomenes

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NotFishing said :
Many of them even faced similar problems to the USSR.

Padomenes said :
Even according to Armadyl. He maintains this order out of care, Saradomin is scared and worried that if cracks appear and if the chaos isn't suppressed. It will fall and all hell will break loose then the prosperity will be gone + "people will die".

So Saradomin is a control freak who can't trust us puny mortals not to blow everything up. But how many things has Saradomin blown up? More than any mortal.

Padomenes said :
The difference to Zaros is that his order or approach to it hasn't failed and is still working so his convinced it's the "correct path".

Except it has failed. He wants to protect people? Failed. He wants to prevent warfare? Failed. He wants everyone to bow to his judgement? Failed. Even if he does succeed, he will do so atop a mountain of corpses and broken principles, all for an empire that will eventually crumble anyways because nothing lasts forever. Nope but you have a similar situation on a smaller scale with protective parents/siblings who care about you. The only difference is that its done on a bigger scale and its not inherently bad. His seen how bad chaos was and doesn't want his people to live through it, think "Toriel from UT"-ish. Its even hinted his daughter might not like his 'protective' attitude.

Also as stated he doesn't "kill everybody who doesn't submit". He only eliminates or fights those that threaten the security/safety of his people. And yes he has managed to successfully protect his people from the potential deaths and prosperity that could be taken away from them by chaos/collapse on New Domina + societies on gielinor. Where is the "zamorak"-ish betrayal that has happened which lead to the deaths and misery of everybody? Howcome it still has not happened to Saradomin and his civilisation?

23-Dec-2016 15:00:00 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 15:13:42 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Where is the "zamorak"-ish betrayal that has happened which lead to the deaths and misery of everybody? Howcome it still has not happened to Saradomin and his civilisation?

If we are truly running with the Saradomin and Zaros parallels here, then the answer to this is simple: waiting for him on Teragard.

Just as Zaros with the empire, Saradomin has left Teragard alone for enough time for corruption and disloyalty to spread throughout it. Now all Saradomin has to do is go back.

Not confirmed by any means, but it certainly fits the parallels we've been seeing.

Also, saying that it hasn't failed yet is not proof that it will last forever.

It's also interesting that you attribute chaos with a loss of prosperity. I can agree that it acts as such in the short term, but that is not so true in the long term. Wars in particular, the type of chaos Saradomin seems to wish to prevent the most, tend to lead to technological advancement that eventually works its way into the hands of civilians and improves their quality of life.

I'm just saying that it is less a case of order=good and chaos=bad and more a case of alternating periods of chaos and order (with the periods of order generally being longer than those of chaos to facilitate recovery) that result in more prosperity for the majority.

And on a final thought, you state that Saradomin 'only eliminates or fights those that threaten the security/safety of his people.' Doesn't that include people who threaten his order from within the empire? People who peacefully disagree with the way he is ruling, but do so with enough influence that their stance could undermine his? People like Garlandia? Because if he does that enough, he's almost certainly going to have a rebellion on his hands once people find a weapon that can reasonably kill him (something which is currently a break in the parallels between Zaros and Sara)..

23-Dec-2016 15:44:50 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 15:46:16 by Hguoh

Hazeel

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Padomenes said :
Where is the "zamorak"-ish betrayal that has happened which lead to the deaths and misery of everybody? How come it still has not happened to Saradomin and his civilisation?

Well there's all the rebels in New Domina trying to win back their freedeom--the difference is they're failing. Teregard has become the new Zarosian empire, but Saradomin isn't around to be betrayed...it's not a question of "if", but "when". Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

23-Dec-2016 16:43:02

Edcy

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Edcy said :
Petty explains to invade more, why not live in his own world happily ever after? What is the nencessity in his necessities?? I will not add third guestion with 3 guestion markers due to unstable thread.

Padomenes: To spread the philosophy of order to bring prosperity to others as shown on Gielinor how it has worked out. Saradomin is non-isolationist and wants to be a world sheriff kind of figure against chaos. It's justified like the war on terror.

Now don't be silly, world are many and different, Sarahdominion is simply differ-racist about it, he could as well as just make his own corner of world to live in the way he likes, letting other corners do as they do... But what if one corners life was to invade other corners? Indeed! What i'm digging into is something i feel sorry for, and i apologize for possibly mindsteams. Cup if empty, end of picnic!

Edit goes to fiddle with quoting a quote in quote or something but i made it simple to slice of~

23-Dec-2016 20:57:28 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 21:01:34 by Edcy

Padomenes

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As for New Domina but think of what happened when Christopher Columbus arrived in the Americas, it could have occurred similarly to Saradomin arriving with the Icyene in other lands. Its some of it may have not even been completely intentional but done by the Icyene serving with him or their ideas? The intention might not have been hate or to "kill them all" like in that incident, just "pure colonialism".

24-Dec-2016 01:52:19 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 01:54:42 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
As for New Domina but think of what happened when Christopher Columbus arrived in the Americas, it could have occurred similarly to Saradomin arriving with the Icyene in other lands. Its some of it may have not even been completely intentional but done by the Icyene serving with him or their ideas?

Once again, Old Chris Columbus's actions didn't wipe out all of the native inhabitants of the Americas. Wiping out every member of a species isn't very easy to do unintentionally. The closest known case of this happening in RS was the effect the destruction of Forinthry had on the Aviansie population, and even then there were some Aviansie left alive not only on Abbinah, but also on Gielinor

24-Dec-2016 01:59:19

NotFishing

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Padomenes, you are trying to justify Saradomin's atrocies by comparing them to real life atrocities, which weren't justifiable either.

"Real life colonists did it to the natives!" doesn't make it acceptable, especially when even those colonists did not completely wipe them out, and their descendants tried to make amends. In Saradomin's case, he apparently wiped them out so completely that there apparently isn't anyone left to make amends to, and he might not even want to.

"Look at the USSR - there's an example of an authoritarian society similar to Saradomin's." Millions of people were killed under Stalin's rule, and many more suffered.

"It's comparable to the war on terror." The war on terror is pointless - all it has managed to do is destabilize whatever region was invaded, and even if whatever terrorist group was arround at the time was defeated, another group would just rise in their place a few years later. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 13:39:59 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 13:49:08 by NotFishing

Padomenes

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NotFishing said :
Padomenes, you are trying to justify Saradomin's atrocies by comparing them to real life atrocities, which weren't justifiable either.

"Real life colonists did it to the natives!" doesn't make it acceptable, especially when even those colonists did not completely wipe them out, and their descendants tried to make amends. In Saradomin's case, he apparently wiped them out so completely that there apparently isn't anyone left to make amends to, and he might not even want to.

"Look at the USSR - there's an example of an authoritarian society similar to Saradomin's." Millions of people were killed under Stalin's rule, and many more suffered.

"It's comparable to the war on terror." The war on terror is pointless - all it has managed to do is destabilize whatever region was invaded, and even if whatever terrorist group was arround at the time was defeated, another group would just rise in their place a few years later. But you started by comparing him to the "third reich". For "USSR" I wasn't trying to justify, but saying it was a better comparison than the "third reich" if you wanted to compare a regime at-worst. As for colonialists I'm saying that its unlikely "genocide" was intentional by Saradomin himself, even if it did occur by his followers it was likely in the process of colonisation.

As for the war on ~~chaos~~ terror which is the "best comparison" if your using irl examples to his foreign policy approach, alot of terrorism has been reduced by it though? No 9/11 attacks since then. Replace the word "terror" with chaos in "war on x" and that is Saradomin. Chaos is like terrorism to him.

I'm just trying to say it can't be helped sometimes, not "justified" always. But he will stop if you can get him to change eventually.

24-Dec-2016 14:20:51 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 14:30:44 by Padomenes

NotFishing

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Padomenes said :
But you started by comparing him to the "third reich".

Blatant lies.

First off, you have been drawing in real world comparisons since the third page of this thread.

Second, I listed off about dozen different empires that all spread through conquest, all of which fell. The Third Reich happened to be one of them, and that was the only example you took away from that.

Padomenes said :
For "USSR" I wasn't trying to justify, but saying it was a better comparison than the "third reich" if you wanted to compare a regime at-worst.

Stalin killed more people than Hitler. You really think it's a better comparison now?

Padomenes said :
As for colonialists I'm saying that its unlikely "genocide" was intentional by Saradomin himself, even if it did occur by his followers it was likely in the process of colonisation.

So you're telling me that Saradomin was somehow unaware that his followers were committing genocide on an entire race? And when the dust settled, he looked around confused and said: "Where did everyone go?" As if he hadn't just been leading a massive war against them.

Because if he was aware, surely he would have punished the worst of his followers to deter the rest? Because if he didn't punish them, that meant he was complicit. And if he was complicit, that meant he was either directly ordering the deaths, didn't care, or couldn't do anything to control his own followers so he just gave up telling them to stop.

Remember how Saradomin destroyed the Nagari? It wouldn't be the first time he deliberately laid waste to innocent people.

Padomenes said :
No 9/11 attacks since then.

More lies. Do you even keep up with the news? There was another massive terrorist attack only a year ago. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 14:57:01 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 15:09:17 by NotFishing

NotFishing

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Padomenes said :
But he will stop if you can get him to change eventually.

That logic doesn't work for abusive relationships. Why should it work for following a wrathful dictator with genocidal tendencies? One of Saradomin's largest traits is the fact that he is stubborn. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 14:57:49 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 15:12:19 by NotFishing

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Genocide by wing?