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Genocide by wing?

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Padomenes

Padomenes

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Hguoh said :
Zack3 said :
Again he had a millennia to at least check on them once, yet he never did, how am I expected to believe he cares about his followers when he doesn't even bothers to check on them in that amount of time, not to mention there has been hints that teragard might have turned worse since he left, but lets ignore that point for now since there isn't enough evidence for this point.

Honestly, that was one of the more 'interesting' bits of my discussion with Saradomin in this quest.

Sara: Look, I do what I do because any other way falls and people suffer.

Me: I guess that makes some sense. So have you checked up on Teragard since you left?

Sara: No, I've been too busy too.

Me: ... Then how do you know if your way works if you haven't bothered to check on the places you've stopped ruling directly? But you don't get it do you. If he returned to Teragard he would have to give up more of his current time to invest in governing it, which he doesn't because he has Gielinor, New Domina and too many other things to do.

Yes he states he is interested in visiting it to see how his doing though. Because last time he left probably everything was alright so he assumed it would stay together and feels secure they would not have fallen apart.

You have got to remember, Saradomin developed a thesis for preventing chaos he believes from experience will work by a chance of 100% and has no chance of ever failing if implemented fully.

22-Dec-2016 04:56:56 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 05:00:51 by Padomenes

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Hguoh said :
Zack3 said :
Again he had a millennia to at least check on them once, yet he never did, how am I expected to believe he cares about his followers when he doesn't even bothers to check on them in that amount of time, not to mention there has been hints that teragard might have turned worse since he left, but lets ignore that point for now since there isn't enough evidence for this point.

Honestly, that was one of the more 'interesting' bits of my discussion with Saradomin in this quest.

Sara: Look, I do what I do because any other way falls and people suffer.

Me: I guess that makes some sense. So have you checked up on Teragard since you left?

Sara: No, I've been too busy too.

Me: ... Then how do you know if your way works if you haven't bothered to check on the places you've stopped ruling directly? But you don't get it do you. If he returned to Teragard he would have to give up more of his current time to invest in governing it, which he doesn't because he has Gielinor, New Domina and too many other things to do.

Yes he states he is interested in visiting it to see how his doing though. Because last time he left probably everything was alright so he assumed it would stay together and feels secure they would not have fallen apart.

You have got to remember, Saradomin developed a thesis for preventing chaos he believes from experience will work by a chance of 100%.

But how does he know from experience if he never bothered to check back on your past experiences? Yes he's interested in checking up on them, but it is hard to believe somebody when they say 'I know my way works' when they didn't check back on their past attempts to affirm that claim.

22-Dec-2016 05:03:42 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 05:04:04 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Nope, what would have happened is a large proportion of them were killed in the fighting. And a very tiny amount survived which that he had no time to care about whom then succumbed. What if a massive proportion of their population went to fight or were involved in the fighting? You don't know how these natives lived or where and how they lived yet.

Aside from that we know it was mainly for colonialist purposes, looking after and focusing on his own people first. Have you considered the possibility of the natives being "bred out"?

Right, right. They were 'bred out.' That's why the words 'no longer' linger unsaid in the conversation. That's totally an indication of somebody who brought them into their kingdom and they eventually merged seamlessly. /sarcasm

As for the point you make earlier in your post, even some of the most infamous genocides in human history have left people behind of the targeted population. And you want me to believe that a war managed to wipe out so much of a population that they couldn't continue to sustain themselves and that this war did so without any acts of genocide?

As I already said, the chances of that being the case is simply too small to be considered likely in any shape of the word at this point in time.

That's not to say that the genocide could have been justified (ex: the other natives could have been predators of the Icyene, or could have been naturally inclined to things contrary to Saradomin's end goal (ex: chthonians wanting to consume just about anything)), but that doesn't prevent it from being a genocide.

22-Dec-2016 05:17:46 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 05:19:39 by Hguoh

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Pads, I would like you to see you address my points on the pettiness of revenge. It seems you either missed or ignored it. Now onto your argument.

Padomenes said :
You have got to remember, Saradomin developed a thesis for preventing chaos he believes from experience will work by a chance of 100% and has no chance of ever failing if implemented fully.

No plan is foolproof, especially when it comes to governing an entire world.

Saradomin's thesis is: "If everyone does everything I say, and nobody questions or opposes me, then everything will be fine. The people who do oppose me will be either destroyed or left to rot."

It is the philosophy adopted by every dictator ever, and it never works. Rome, Mongolia, the Ottoman Empire, the Arabian Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, the British Empire, the Third Reich. They all collapsed. And it is always due to one out of three reasons:

1) The dictator makes too many enemies, who promptly unite and overwhelm him. You simply can't fight a war on that many fronts. War is hell - it drains your empire's resources, manpower, and eventually crushes the people's morale because they get tired of fighting.

2) The dictator's people get tired of servitude and having their freedoms suppressed. They question his policies and protest for more rights. The dictator can either give them these things willingly, which will lead to further reforms in the long run and the ultimate undoing of the dictatorship, or he can come down hard on them, which eventually will only inspire them to fight harder because it's just another example of his oppression.

3) The empire spreads too thin and collapses under its own weight. The dictator can't micromanage everything. Which means he has to either neglect certain areas, or leave them in the hands of advisers and governors who have a fair amount of independence and can exercise corruption and/or incompetence, and have the capacity for betrayal. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 13:19:41 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 13:25:50 by NotFishing

Padomenes

Padomenes

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But any human in an apocalyptic survival mindset you find would adopt the same mindset Saradomin has now. Because thats how Saradomin is treating it, if Order is broken things will eventually fall into chaos long-term. In an apocalyptic scenario if Order is broken things will fall into chaos short-term and everybody dies. The only difference is Saradomin is thinking long-term in this mindset. The third reich was built more on hate/revenge towards those responsible for the Versailles treaty + "the Jews" whom they thought were advantaged oppressors and not really on order.

Any fully-planned economy or the USSR(After Lenin and Trotsky died) though would be a better example of a flawed civilisation with an economy based on Pure Order, in no way am I saying it was perfect but when it collapsed many people died or went into misery due to losing the benefits of free housing, guaranteed employment, free transport, free universal healthcare + food.

Even according to Armadyl. He maintains this order out of care, Saradomin is scared and worried that if cracks appear and if the chaos isn't suppressed. It will fall and all hell will break loose then the prosperity will be gone + "people will die". The difference to Zaros is that his order or approach to it hasn't failed and is still working so his convinced it's the "correct path". If it were to somehow implode and lead to misery/death instead from the collapse(which hasn't occurred yet) then I'm sure he would have a 180 degree turn away from the empire building method. Cause right now Zaros even admires his way of running one and is convinced it works.

Anyways in terms of alignment the recent character development it appears though they have put Zaros and Saradomin next to each other, as they have done with Bandos and Zamorak or Seren and Armadyl. Your deity is the "Seren/Bandos" faction pairing for us now as those two are to Zamorakians/Armadyleans? Huh?

22-Dec-2016 15:20:47 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 15:01:57 by Padomenes

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Padomenes said :
But any human in an apocalyptic survival mindset you find would adopt the same mindset Saradomin has now.

This isn't an apocalypse. Gielnor has a fully functioning society that was doing fine before the gods showed up and tried to lord over everything.

Padomenes said :
Because thats how Saradomin is treating it, if Order is broken things will eventually fall into chaos long-term.

The world needs a bit of chaos. I'm not talking Zamorak's breed of chaos where it is every man for himself, but there needs to be room for freedom and creativity. And Saradomin's way will fall into chaos long term regardless. See my three reasons on why a dictatorship never works.

Padomenes said :
The third reich was built more on hate/revenge towards those responsible for the Versailles treaty + "the Jews" whom they thought were advantaged oppressors and not really on order.

New Domina was built more on hate/revenge towards the natives who lived there, whom they thought were advantaged oppressors and not really an order.

Padomenes said :
Any fully-planned economy or the USSR(After Lenin and Trotsky died) though would be a better example of a flawed civilisation with an economy based on Order, in no way am I saying it was perfect but when it collapsd many people died or went into misery due to losing the benefits of free housing, guaranteed employment, free transport, free universal healthcare + food.

Exactly! The USSR collapsed too! And for the three reasons I have already provided! All that suffering happened because an egotistical dictator made people dependent on the system. In addition to the suffering they had to endure during said dictator's reign. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

23-Dec-2016 12:45:47 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 13:05:15 by NotFishing

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Many of them even faced similar problems to the USSR.

Padomenes said :
Even according to Armadyl. He maintains this order out of care, Saradomin is scared and worried that if cracks appear and if the chaos isn't suppressed. It will fall and all hell will break loose then the prosperity will be gone + "people will die".

So Saradomin is a control freak who can't trust us puny mortals not to blow everything up. But how many things has Saradomin blown up? More than any mortal.

Padomenes said :
The difference to Zaros is that his order or approach to it hasn't failed and is still working so his convinced it's the "correct path".

Except it has failed. He wants to protect people? Failed. He wants to prevent warfare? Failed. He wants everyone to bow to his judgement? Failed. Even if he does succeed, he will do so atop a mountain of corpses and broken principles, all for an empire that will eventually crumble anyways because nothing lasts forever.

Padomenes said :
Cause right now Zaros even admires his way of running one and is convinced it works.

No, he is intrigued. "Many races have prospered under his rule, most notably yours, so perhaps there is some merit to what he expouses." Only comes after condemning him for being a narrow-minded war-starting hypocrite. Zaros still doesn't believe it would work, otherwise he would be helping Saradomin or trying to build his own empire. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

23-Dec-2016 12:59:18 - Last edited on 23-Dec-2016 13:05:45 by NotFishing

NotFishing

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Padomenes said :
Anyways in terms of alignment the recent character development it appears though they have put Zaros and Saradomin next to each other, as they have done with Bandos and Zamorak or Seren and Armadyl. Your deity is the "Seren/Bandos" faction pairing for us now as those two are to Zamorakians/Armadyleans? Huh?

My deity is Zaros. What are you even going on about? Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

23-Dec-2016 13:01:39

Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
Anyways in terms of alignment the recent character development it appears though they have put Zaros and Saradomin next to each other, as they have done with Bandos and Zamorak or Seren and Armadyl. Your deity is the "Seren/Bandos" faction pairing for us now as those two are to Zamorakians/Armadyleans? Huh?

My deity is Zaros. What are you even going on about? I'm talking in terms of alignment development. Bandos and Zamorak both believe in "survival of the fittest" but approach it in different manners, Seren and Armadyl both believe in "Cooperation and Harmony", Saradomin/Zaros both believe in "control/order for the greater good" and "the end justifies the means".

It seems in this quest they've put Saradomin next to Zaros in alignment proximity for whatever reason. Not sure if its a good/bad idea.

23-Dec-2016 14:57:16

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