RuneScape Forum Archive | Genocide by wing?

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Snip

The god wars had many parties vying for control over multiple fronts. Whilst there were almost certainly some genocides during this time period, some would have been the result of a race happening to have lived in a particularly tumultuous area (their habitat was put under such stress that it could no longer support them) whilst others would have been displaced by the fighting and would dwindle as they searched for a new home.

This was not the situation on New Domina. Saradomins forces fought against a the other natives of New Domina. And he didn't just defeat them, he completely wiped them out with no survivors (or, knowing Jagex, a number of survivors too small too sustain the population). The chances of that being purely the result of unfortunate consequences of war are so small that the idea of clinging to the idea that there isn't enough proof is laughable.

Face it, you have a better chance at pushing the idea Saradomin believed that they were incompatible in the long term under his rule (he does say that he tore Garlandia's wings off to demonstrate the mercilessness of the enemy (in spite of him refusing to try a peaceful solution)) which fits with his established views (he views Zamorak and his followers view demons and vampyres the same way) than you do of trying to convince anybody that this was anything less than a genocide.

22-Dec-2016 04:32:29

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Also for his "harsh approach" to enemies think of somebody who might finish off a murderer/home invader that breaks into their home after they are incapacitated so they can't be a threat, that is his current approach to aggression. Or uses more force than necessary that accidentally ends up doing so. Its not out of malice necessarily but out of a fear for insecurity from negative experiences related to survival.

That's still a murder. They were already incapacitated and then that person unnecessarily went further and the original wrong doer died.

And let's pretend that was the case with Saradomin on New Domina. Sure he didn't intentionally commit a genocide under that assumption, but he still continued to attack an enemy after they'd already been reduced beyond the point where they could defend themselves and did so with so much undue force that he exterminated them!

22-Dec-2016 04:38:15

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
Saradomin is a human, driven by feelings

Everyone here is a human. That's not an excuse. The fact that Saradomin can't put his emotions aside is yet another character flaw.

Padomenes said :
why should you expect anything good in return if you treat somebody bad?

That goes both ways. If everyone expects everyone else to extend an olive branch first, we would all be at each others throats.

I expect people to think rationally. If I resent someone because they were not nice to me once, that is not rational. That is petty. When you resent an entire race because their government declared war on you, it's even worse.

I would expect a leader, a self-proclaimed god, of all people to not be so petty and vain.

Padomenes said :
Nope but its more realistic when it comes to survival against aggression.

Again, no it isn't. Eye for an eye literally means exactly what it says. You will do everything in your power to get even. That's not survival, that is revenge. Revenge clouds your judgement and leads to stupid decisions. Saradomin wiped out a race that did not need to be wiped out. He could have recruited them, or exiled them to another world.

Padomenes said :
If you think "turn the other cheek" or "be killed" in a "kill or be killed" scenario give an example of it ever working.

Refusing to stoop to petty revenge does not automatically mean I constantly preach peace and nonviolence. Nothing is black and white. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there were a million better solutions than genocide.

Padomenes said :
When a god uses magic the devastation can be to the level of a nuke and affect the land + how things grow.

Saradomin was the only one in this particular conflict who had that magic. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 04:38:26 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:40:28 by NotFishing

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Padomenes said :
Snip

The god wars had many parties vying for control over multiple fronts. Whilst there were almost certainly some genocides during this time period, some would have been the result of a race happening to have lived in a particularly tumultuous area (their habitat was put under such stress that it could no longer support them) whilst others would have been displaced by the fighting and would dwindle as they searched for a new home.

This was not the situation on New Domina. Saradomins forces fought against a the other natives of New Domina. And he didn't just defeat them, he completely wiped them out with no survivors (or, knowing Jagex, a number of survivors too small too sustain the population). The chances of that being purely the result of unfortunate consequences of war are so small that the idea of clinging to the idea that there isn't enough proof is laughable. And you think what happened at the top could not have happened with the "natives"? It was also hinted that the situation was particularly a very large scale war, what happens if a massive percentage of them were fighting and got killed?

And only a small percentage of survivors got left. You don't understand that warfare in runescape is very different and perhaps more lethal than irl medieval warfare.

The Native Americans experienced a similar population decline from fighting and etc, but the intention was colonization and fighting back against hostile natives as the settlers were expanding across which inevitably resulted in extinction of many tribes. Something similar would have happened if his followers wanted to settle more lands they were on, and they responded hostilely by attacking them in waves forcing them to invade then wipe out their colonies.

Now I'm not saying it was good but what if the natives were actively hostile like that due to settlement?

22-Dec-2016 04:39:30 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:42:00 by Padomenes

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

But the Native American race is still around, is it not? Their population declined, yes, but we didn't wipe them out. We realized our mistakes, and many government officials have tried to make up for past wrongs throughout history. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 04:41:12 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:47:02 by NotFishing

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zack3 said :
Again he had a millennia to at least check on them once, yet he never did, how am I expected to believe he cares about his followers when he doesn't even bothers to check on them in that amount of time, not to mention there has been hints that teragard might have turned worse since he left, but lets ignore that point for now since there isn't enough evidence for this point.

Honestly, that was one of the more 'interesting' bits of my discussion with Saradomin in this quest.

Sara: Look, I do what I do because any other way falls and people suffer.

Me: I guess that makes some sense. So have you checked up on Teragard since you left?

Sara: No, I've been too busy too.

Me: ... Then how do you know if your way works if you haven't bothered to check on the places you've stopped ruling directly?

22-Dec-2016 04:43:44

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
But the Native American race is still around, is it not? Pretty much almost thought of as extinct to a 99% rate. Maybe a small percentage of the "natives" were left alive as I said, a very tiny amount if they all responded hostilely to attack Saradomin's settlers which resulted in a counter-attack where their villages were wiped out one by one. Then when it was all done, a few of the ones alive would have probably fled or ran away then died/succumbed. Or even possibly a very tiny amount have survived(knowing jagex).

Colonialism or colonial war often leads to extinctions too because in those situations the colonizers are looking inwards in terms of care, and not looking outwards to the natives whom keep attacking them.

22-Dec-2016 04:45:01 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:47:29 by Padomenes

Zack3

Posts: 1,644 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
But the Native American race is still around, is it not? Their population declined, yes, but we didn't wipe them out. We realized our mistakes, and many government officials have tried to make it for past wrongs throughout history.
Not to mention the majority of the native americans died due to diseases foreign to America.

22-Dec-2016 04:47:29

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
And you think what happened at the top could not have happened with the "natives"? It was also hinted that the situation was particularly a very large scale war, what happens if a massive percentage of them were fighting and got killed?

And only a small percentage of survivors got left. You don't understand that warfare in runescape is very different and perhaps more lethal than irl medieval warfare.

The Native Americans experienced a similar population decline from fighting and etc, but the intention was colonization and fighting back against hostile natives as the settlers were expanding across which inevitably resulted in extinction of many tribes. Something similar would have happened if his followers wanted to settle more lands they were on, and they responded hostilely by attacking them in waves forcing them to invade then wipe out their colonies.

Now I'm not saying it was good but what if the natives were actively hostile like that due to settlement?

...[facepalm] What happened to the Native Americans was a genocide, and even then some of them were still left once the US government got its act together.

Saradomin completely wiped out all of the other New Domina natives. Just think about that. None of them are left. None. Do you realize just how hard it would be to do that on accident, and to an entire planet's worth of natives?

22-Dec-2016 04:50:08 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:52:09 by Hguoh

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Padomenes said :
And you think what happened at the top could not have happened with the "natives"? It was also hinted that the situation was particularly a very large scale war, what happens if a massive percentage of them were fighting and got killed?

And only a small percentage of survivors got left. You don't understand that warfare in runescape is very different and perhaps more lethal than irl medieval warfare.

The Native Americans experienced a similar population decline from fighting and etc, but the intention was colonization and fighting back against hostile natives as the settlers were expanding across which inevitably resulted in extinction of many tribes. Something similar would have happened if his followers wanted to settle more lands they were on, and they responded hostilely by attacking them in waves forcing them to invade then wipe out their colonies.

Now I'm not saying it was good but what if the natives were actively hostile like that due to settlement?

...[facepalm] What happened to the Native Americans was a genocide, and even then some of them were still left once the US government got its act together.

Saradomin completely wiped out all of the other New Domina natives. Just think about that. None of them are left. None. Do you realize just how hard it would be to do that on accident? Nope, what would have happened is a large proportion of them were killed in the fighting. And a very tiny amount survived which that he had no time to care about whom then succumbed. What if a massive proportion of their population went to fight or were involved in the fighting? You don't know how these natives lived or where and how they lived yet.

Aside from that we know it was mainly for colonialist purposes, looking after and focusing on his own people first. Have you considered the possibility of the natives being "bred out"?

22-Dec-2016 04:53:45 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 05:00:08 by Padomenes

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Genocide by wing?