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Genocide by wing?

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Padomenes

Padomenes

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In order for it to be classified as a "genocide" the INTENT must be and there is 0 evidence of intent of wanting an entire race gone in actions. It just says their ways of doing stuff are too hardcore/extreme. Hunting even leads to the extinction of species yet the intention itself isn't extermination/extinction. Saradomin's centaurs went extinct, the intention was not extinction. Also I will give this example:

Wahisietel said :
You don't seem to know what the definition of genocide is. The definition of genocide is: "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

Seren teaching the Mahjarrat how to perform the rituals is not genocide - they were complicit she was not trying to wipe them out.

Saradomin destroying one city and inadvertently causing a God War by drawing other gods to Naragun with Crown Archival is not genocide - Saradomin wants people to worship him, he isn't going to wipe out a race for no reason. Tuska and her crew were probably responsible for more Naragi deaths.

Even Zamorak nuking Forinthry is arguably not genocide - he wasn't specifically targeting anyone besides Saradomin, Armadyl and Bandos, and was probably not even thinking about the consequences of his actions - he was just being desperate.

The only actual possible genocide known to be committed by any living god is whatever race Saradomin and the Icyene were at war with. And even then it's IMO unlikely it was an outright genocide - it more likely that the race's numbers were crippled by the war, and those few remaining were not enough to form a sustainable breeding population. We don't even know if the race was sentient.

22-Dec-2016 02:57:17

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Padomenes said :
The god wars did just that and drove many races extinct. You really haven't read about the climate of new domina have you. It's cold, harsh and easy to die without food/shelter in a matter of days.

It's mostly water, and has both winter and summer. Even if it was a frozen wasteland, the race would have adapted to living there.

Padomenes said :
There have been some - many in the Middle Ages and villages' populations have gone extinct.

Individual villages. Not entire countries.

Padomenes said :
It's still not genocide if Saradomin just leaves them like he left wounded civilians in lumbridge.

Doesn't make him any less responsible. He still let an entire race die out because he couldn't be bothered to take and indoctrinate a few survivors.

Also the key word there in your last sentence is intended. Even if it was accidental, that only suggests he is extremely irresponsible. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 03:05:25

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Anyways, what I was suggesting - before you tried to change the subject to Saradomin's other actions - was that Saradomin INTENDED to wipe out the native race of New Domina. You don't just 'accidentally' drive an entire race to extinction. He either knowingly let them die, or deliberately wiped them out himself. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 03:09:05 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:11:26 by NotFishing

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
In order for it to be classified as a "genocide" the INTENT must be and there is 0 evidence of intent of wanting an entire race gone in actions. It just says their ways of doing stuff are too hardcore/extreme. Hunting even leads to the extinction of species yet the intention itself isn't extermination/extinction. Saradomin's centaurs went extinct, the intention was not extinction.

Pads, we aren't talking about the centaurs here. We are talking about the other natives of New Domina who no longer exist there at all.

Yes, some chunk of them would have died due to complications caused by the war with the Icyene, but NotFishing is right in that it is ridiculous to expect every single civilian to have been wiped out by these complications alone. The simple fact that none of them exist anymore indicates that they were deliberately targeted and eliminated until none remained. In other words, the intent in this case was to exterminate them, with only the narrowest of chances that they simply all croaked due to secondary effects of the war.

This was almost certainly a genocide on Saradomin's part.

22-Dec-2016 03:09:45

NotFishing

NotFishing

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I think Pads got a bit confused. There's another thread called "Genocide!" where it is giving gods scores based on their various genocides. Saradomin was criticized for his massacre of the Nagari, the extinction of the Centaurs, and the genocide of the natives of New Domina.

Considering how these threads both have the word 'Genocide' in the title, it's easy to confuse the two. Maybe he meant to post on that instead?

Anyways, Pads, I apologize if I came across as too harsh - I can get a bit angry when arguing about sensitive topics such as this, even though it's in a video game. But my points still stand. I hope to continue this argument in a polite manner. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 03:17:15 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:28:57 by NotFishing

Padomenes

Padomenes

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NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
The god wars did just that and drove many races extinct. You really haven't read about the climate of new domina have you. It's cold, harsh and easy to die without food/shelter in a matter of days.

It's mostly water, and has both winter and summer. Even if it was a frozen wasteland, the race would have adapted to living there.

Padomenes said :
There have been some - many in the Middle Ages and villages' populations have gone extinct.

Individual villages. Not entire countries.

Padomenes said :
It's still not genocide if Saradomin just leaves them like he left wounded civilians in lumbridge.

Doesn't make him any less responsible. He still let an entire race die out because he couldn't be bothered to take and indoctrinate a few survivors.

Also the key word there in your last sentence is intended. Even if it was accidental, that only suggests he is extremely irresponsible. Its stated that the creatures on new domina often have to migrate to survive. So yes, without infrastructure or food and all gone from looting they would eventually die out.

And if you notice, Saradomin does care alot for his followers. He looks outward in foreign policy but also inward in terms of care, he puts those who treat him good first and always puts the ones that act bad towards him last. Which was why all of his positive lore is locked from you if you chose to side against him.

Yes he most likely did let them die out by "not helping them", its the way he responded to the casualities in lumbridge too. Focus on his own followers first above all else. And also what if a massive amount of their population was involved in the fighting? How did the god wars drive countless entire species' to extinction?

You would probably have very few left, who then eventually succumbed to the aftermath.

22-Dec-2016 03:35:26 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:41:47 by Padomenes

Padomenes

Padomenes

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Hguoh said :
Padomenes said :
In order for it to be classified as a "genocide" the INTENT must be and there is 0 evidence of intent of wanting an entire race gone in actions. It just says their ways of doing stuff are too hardcore/extreme. Hunting even leads to the extinction of species yet the intention itself isn't extermination/extinction. Saradomin's centaurs went extinct, the intention was not extinction.

Pads, we aren't talking about the centaurs here. We are talking about the other natives of New Domina who no longer exist there at all.

Yes, some chunk of them would have died due to complications caused by the war with the Icyene, but NotFishing is right in that it is ridiculous to expect every single civilian to have been wiped out by these complications alone. The simple fact that none of them exist anymore indicates that they were deliberately targeted and eliminated until none remained. In other words, the intent in this case was to exterminate them, with only the narrowest of chances that they simply all croaked due to secondary effects of the war.

This was almost certainly a genocide on Saradomin's part. Still there isn't enough proof, he could have just pursued an extremely aggressive military and diplomacy policy in dealing with them that eventually lead to their extinction. Like using heaps of force on an intruder when you don't want them to die then having them die from it. Explain how countless races became extinct due to the god wars then, were they all "genocides"?

Its also possible runescape's universe has a smaller population scale than irl, the fact many races died out in the god wars proves it doesn't need a 'genocide' here for that to happen.

Saradomin is a god who takes big measures out of insecurity for the breakdown of order/security in his flaws.

22-Dec-2016 03:44:07 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:45:01 by Padomenes

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Padomenes said :
Its stated that the creatures on new domina often have to migrate to survive. So yes, without infrastructure or food and all gone from looting they would eventually die out.

You don't need infrastructure when you have wings.

Padomenes said :
And if you notice, Saradomin does care alot of his followers. He looks outward in foreign policy but also inward in terms of care, he puts those who treat him good first and always puts the ones that act bad towards him last. Which is why all of the positive lore of Saradomin is locked from you if you chose to side against him.

I shouldn't have to side with him in order to see the positives. He's the one trying to win me over, not the other way around. Also, what you just described sounds like a fascist dictatorship. "If you do everything I say and flatter my ego, you're okay. If not, you can rot."

Padomenes said :
Yes he most likely did let them die out by "not helping them"

Still not buying it. There would have been have isolated towns and villages of no strategic importance that were left out of the fighting. There would have been citizens who hid in their homes and had enough food to wait out the sieges.

Eventually the soldiers would have surrendered, which means there would be no need to continue attacking the civilians they were supposedly hiding among. There are only three reasons why a soldier won't surrender in a losing battle:
1. They think their sacrifice will help win the war. (Unlikely since they are losing to the point where they risked annihilation.)
2. Death or glory, and all that jazz.
3. They know that they and possibly the people they are protecting will be killed anyways.

You can't tell me that an entire race was collateral damage. And if it was, that is A LOT of collateral damage, and Saradomin COULD have tried to save them, but didn't. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 03:54:51 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:02:09 by NotFishing

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Just because they aren't his followers, doesn't mean he is justified in letting them die. If you only help people who help you, you are selfish.

Finally, even if the natives of New Domina did have a highly militaristic population, there are still children who don't know how to fight and would not be put on the front lines. And I would like to go back to my point about surrendering.

As for the other races that went extinct in the God Wars... again, that would have been either deliberate as well, or due to irresponsible decisions on behalf of the gods who led them and the gods who killed them. Bandos and Zamorak were not above genocide. I could easily see them hunting the Centaurs to extinction because they served Saradomin.

You don't 'accidentally' wipe out an entire race. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 04:01:37

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