RuneScape Forum Archive | Genocide by wing?

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
But he will stop if you can get him to change eventually.

That logic doesn't work for abusive relationships. Why should it work for following a wrathful dictator with genocidal tendencies? One of Saradomin's largest traits is the fact that he is stubborn. Proof he enjoys genocide and directly intends it? Howcome his never killed a single non-saradominist for having different beliefs that did not attack him? His order ONLY applies to those who chose to be in it aka his followers or aggressors.

Show me one single example where Saradomin has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious.

What about all the lives what would be lost if Saradomin's order fell from the chaos and the traumatic experiences his had where he saw many die from a collapse of a civilisation and the chaos that followed? They don't matter to you at all? You clearly want them to die and don't care about them. You still ignore the fact he hints he even clearly HATES/DOESN'T ENJOY BY ONE BIT what he has to do but feels FORCED to do them because if he doesn't there will be death, misery and suffering from the chaos that follows. ARMADYL says his even harsh out of CARE.

His stubborn because his trying to SURVIVE chaos permanently with 0 loose ends. His more afraid of what will happen if he doesn't.

What about zaros' genocidal tendencies and stubbornness including what was done to Char's race or countless people in the names of "progress" he admitted until he got a staff in his back? Zaros said ultimately the deaths were necessary?

Having extreme hatred only makes you look hypocritical btw. Go take it up with jagex if you don't like how his portrayed to non-followers.

24-Dec-2016 16:07:05 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 16:46:47 by Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
But you started by comparing him to the "third reich".

Blatant lies.

First off, you have been drawing in real world comparisons since the third page of this thread.

Second, I listed off about dozen different empires that all spread through conquest, all of which fell. The Third Reich happened to be one of them, and that was the only example you took away from that.

Padomenes said :
For "USSR" I wasn't trying to justify, but saying it was a better comparison than the "third reich" if you wanted to compare a regime at-worst.

Stalin killed more people than Hitler. You really think it's a better comparison now?

Remember how Saradomin destroyed the Nagari? It wouldn't be the first time he deliberately laid waste to innocent people.

Padomenes said :
No 9/11 attacks since then.

More lies. Do you even keep up with the news? There was another massive terrorist attack only a year ago. Everything a Saradominist says is a "lie". But that doesn't stop the fact all those comparisons you gave were REAL WORLD examples.

9/11 was a series of attacks all happening at once that killed hundreds - thousands, in one - two days. Stalin killed at a slower rate than Hitler, but during the same time of the war Hitler had more time to do so but got stopped before he could finish the work on the other groups of people. If he was alive for an equal period of time statistics show the death tolls would have been higher. Stalin also was not motivated by race but the concentration camps' conditions in the third reich clearly showed intention for deaths. Neither was USSR all comprised of Stalin.

Proof Saradomin intentionally destroyed naragun all by himself? There were survivors who all died out later long after he left.

24-Dec-2016 16:09:23 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 16:26:34 by Padomenes

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
Howcome his never killed a single non-saradominist for having different beliefs that did not attack him?

At this point you are just denying the facts. The Naragi refused to follow him, and he destroyed them. That is an example right there .

Padomenes said :
His order ONLY applies to those who chose to be in it aka his followers or aggressors.

Which totally explains why he shows up to worlds uninvited and conquers their territory. He wants Armadyl to be his vassal.

Padomenes said :
Show me one single example where Saradomin has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious.

Okay, first of all, that is really specific and stupid example to ask for. That's like a person saying "Give me an example where (insert controversial figure that person supports here) has laughed while punching a baby in the face. You can't. Therefore, he is a good person."

Secondly, I never said Saradomin enjoyed genocide. He has, however, practiced it frequently in the past, and has heavily implied or admitted it at times (see: the dialogue this thread references.)

Padomenes said :
What about all the lives what would be lost if Saradomin's order fell from the chaos and the traumatic experiences his had where he saw many die from a collapse of a civilisation and the chaos that followed?

You act like Saradomin is the only one keeping Gielnor from crumbling to dust. His absence will not suddenly cause everything to collapse. Ever since Guthix banished the gods, mortals had been getting by just fine for centuries. And not just Saradominists - the Gnomes, Dwarves, Elves, and Freminnik as well, just to name a few.

If people die from Saradomin's death or absence, it will be because of the enemies that he created, and the fact that he made everyone depend on him for leadership.

(continued) Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 17:49:48 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 17:50:11 by NotFishing

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
They don't matter to you at all? You clearly want them to die and don't care about them.

No idea where you're getting this from at all.

You were suggesting that the natives of New Domina all somehow died because "collateral damage." I'm saying that if that is the case, which it very likely is not, that means Saradomin had to have a blatant disregard for their lives, to the point where he would destroy cities to kill a few soldiers, or let his followers get away with massacring innocents. That is the best case scenario here.

Now how exactly have I demonstrated that I don't care about other people?

Padomenes said :
You still ignore the fact he hints he even clearly HATES/DOESN'T ENJOY BY ONE BIT what he has to do but feels FORCED to do them because if he doesn't there will be death, misery and suffering from the chaos that follows. ARMADYL says his even harsh out of CARE.

Based on your sudden use of caps, I appear to have struck a nerve.

Padomenes said :
His stubborn because his trying to SURVIVE chaos permanently with 0 loose ends. His more afraid of what will happen if he doesn't.

A goal which, as already stated, is impossible. It has been proven impossible countless times throughout both in-game history and real world history.

Padomenes said :
What about zaros' genocidal tendencies and stubbornness including what was done to Char's race or countless people in the names of "progress" he admitted until he got a staff in his back? Zaros said ultimately the deaths were necessary?

Zaros owns up to his mistakes, recognizes what works and what doesn't, and adjusts his approach accordingly. Saradomin does not. There is no example of him bringing entire civilizations to ruin over petty reasons like Saradomin has.

(continued) Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 18:04:40

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
Show me one single example where Saradomin has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious.

Okay, first of all, that is really specific and stupid example to ask for. That's like a person saying "Give me an example where (insert controversial figure that person supports here) has laughed while punching a baby in the face. You can't. Therefore, he is a good person."

Secondly, I never said Saradomin enjoyed genocide. He has, however, practiced it frequently in the past, and has heavily implied or admitted it at times (see: the dialogue this thread references.)

Show me one single example where Hitler has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

24-Dec-2016 18:17:15

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

You can sabotage Zaros and condemn him to a slow, gradual death, and he still rewards you for resurrecting him. Refuse to let Saradomin have an unstable magical artifact, and he attacks you. Zaros has demonstrated far more open-mindedness than Saradomin ever has.

Padomenes said :
Having extreme hatred only makes you look hypocritical btw.

I don't hate anyone.

But you're trying to defend genocide by trying to say it isn't genocide, even going so far as to deny all evidence to the contrary, even actual facts.

Padomenes said :
Go take it up with jagex if you don't like how his portrayed to non-followers.

I'm not even sure how this is even an argument.

First off, no. I'm not going to run crying to the game developers to have them make a character less controversial.

Now what are you trying to say with this? That what Saradomin did was okay, because Jagex wrote it like that? If a writer creates a character, I am allowed to analyze that character's actions as much as I want. Saradomin is an interesting character, but as a leader and a person, he is bad.

Seriously, how does that connect to your argument?

As for your other post:
-Both USSR and the Third Reich were awful. Neither of them support your argument. In fact, they both run counter to it. Both of them were authoritarian imperialistic societies that collapsed because they spread themselves too thin and made too many enemies.
-Just because there hasn't been an attack on the same scale as 9/11, doesn't mean terrorism has been reduced. It's not like 9/11 scale attacks were a frequent occurrence before then. But Terrorist attacks in general still happen. But this particular point is distracting from the overall argument.
-Saradomin didn't work alone in the destruction of the Naragi. He did, however, murder thousands, and lure in other gods to begin a mini-god war, which led to their genocide. That is on him, and cannot be denied. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 18:17:39 - Last edited on 24-Dec-2016 18:20:10 by NotFishing

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Show me one single example where Hitler has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious.

Trying to steer the conversation away from Nazi Germany and Terrorism, but yeah, that was basically what I meant. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

24-Dec-2016 18:19:38

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
NotFishing said :
Padomenes said :
Show me one single example where Saradomin has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious.

Okay, first of all, that is really specific and stupid example to ask for. That's like a person saying "Give me an example where (insert controversial figure that person supports here) has laughed while punching a baby in the face. You can't. Therefore, he is a good person."

Secondly, I never said Saradomin enjoyed genocide. He has, however, practiced it frequently in the past, and has heavily implied or admitted it at times (see: the dialogue this thread references.)

Show me one single example where Hitler has laughed and said that genocide was awesome and hilarious. And where did Hitler ever express guilt or that he wished he never had to do it/hated doing it? When he was doing it he never did and said they all deserved it boldly in his speeches, shouting "Survival of the Fittest, the weak should die" and etc. Since when was it for care and protection? Other than just pursuing a personal vendetta from being bullied when he was little and having an abusive father?

Here's a quote from him justifying and saying why he did not have to feel any remorse/guilt for his actions, he claimed the winner proved themselves: “The earth continues to go round, whether it’s the man who kills the tiger or the tiger who eats the man. The stronger asserts his will, it’s the law of nature. The world doesn’t change; its laws are eternal."

Also he said: "He who would live must fight. He who does not wish to fight in this world where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist." To think otherwise is to "insult" nature."

When he was defeated in war in 1945 he even "declared the slavic people to have proved themselves the stronger".

25-Dec-2016 01:49:42 - Last edited on 25-Dec-2016 02:10:15 by Padomenes

NotFishing

Posts: 16,946 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

He was showing you how ridiculous and meaningless your request was. You could just as easily apply that to any horrible person, and most of the time the answer would be no. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

25-Dec-2016 02:08:36 - Last edited on 25-Dec-2016 02:11:40 by NotFishing

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
He was showing you how ridiculous your request was. You could just as easily apply that to any horrible person, and most of the time the answer would be no. Most horrible people never express remorse/guilt for their actions or hate doing questionable actions and openly admit it.

He tried to use Hitler as an example when he felt 0 and stated it was because only "the strongest proved themselves the right to live in fight/war". And that this should be followed by all, etc. He also thought the league of nations was bad because it obstructed this process. So if you believed what he was doing was wrong he would ask you to fight and defeat him in a war to "prove him so". While Stalin just did his stuff out of "Cold Logic", Pure Utilitarianism and the belief morality was subjective.

Worst example you can ever use to compare to Saradomin for flaws.

Saradomin's philosophy is the opposite of implementing "Survival of the Fittest", its about protecting all of the weak and where everybody has the right to survive.

Besides if you don't like the way he rules then just don't follow him. His harsh part only applies to other Saradominists who threaten order in his own ranks or active aggressors as of sixth age. Even Zamorak says, anybody who chooses to follow Saradomin by their own choice in turn subject themselves to his way of doing things willingly. Otherwise it doesn't apply outside.

25-Dec-2016 02:11:13 - Last edited on 25-Dec-2016 04:02:16 by Padomenes

Forums

Genocide by wing?