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Aterivus
Dec Member 2020

Aterivus

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Raxxess said :
Lol they are calling it negotiating, which I really don't think it is but if that what we are calling it. I mean like if you have a nuke by your side and say "hey this is how i want the world to be follow it" he didn't try to give a truce or anything. He could have just said my philosophy will rule in my lands your philosophy can rule yours.

Yeah, I'm kind of doubting that they were going to let Zamorak walk away to practice his philosophy with his followers, and that they would all just go their seperate ways in the end. Saradomin and Bandos made it overtly clear this was going to be Zamorak's end - and if it could go further, I'm sure Saradomin would have done his damnedest at ensuring everything associated with Zamorak was wiped from existence as well.

The only way they'd all be walking away in any sort of truce would be if Armadyl had his way, and Saradomin refused to accept Zamorak as anything less than a monster, and Bandos...well, I'm sure he saw the defeated Zamorak as having become weak and in need of killing.

It seems all you care about is "Zimzams has nuke, he gon' nuke ya'll" . But I think it speaks volumes that he quite literally had his hand on the proverbial trigger and still opted to try the reasonable approach. Even if he had tried explaining himself in the past, I doubt they'd have listened then either. If anyone has a vision of what they want the world to be, and offers no middle ground on what's an acceptable worldview, it's Saradomin.

I'm not saying Zamorak is by no means perfect or without fault, but hot damn, I'm not exactly seeing his enemies as really allowing him to have let anything happen differently. There's a reason that every other God seems to think of Saradomin as a self-righteous blowhard with linear moral tunnel vision. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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24-Feb-2015 22:09:16 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2015 22:10:11 by Aterivus

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

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Raxxess said :

Like I said before, the memory is the moment right before he blew up fort. Which was right before the end of the god wars. He had been at war for a whole age with these guys. If he really wanted to negotiate or talk it out, why not do that during the war or before it do avoid the bloodshed. Trying to talk it out after you have lost the war is not really explaining it. And having a nuke right next to is just like the cherry on top. only thing we know is that armadyl tried to negotiate only with bandos.
(was said by a mod i think?)
zamorak could have tried but he would be killed on sight if he just telled into a city of them, and we know that saradomin kept armadyl on a leash. with bandos, well bandos is bandos, and he doesnt care about philosophys, said it are just empty words.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

24-Feb-2015 23:03:02

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

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Hguoh said :

And no, Zamorak did not immediately invade Saradomin's lands. First he was taken to Infernus for a couple of years. Then he returned and the two of them allied together to crush the rest of Zaros's empire. It was after the Zarosian extermination that Zamorak somehow found out about Saradomin having the stone and demanded it back. Obviously Sara said no, and Zamorak resorted to more violent means.

"Nineteen years later, Zamorak returned to Gielinor at the head of an Avernic demon army even larger than the one Zaros had invaded with, although admittedly not as well-disciplined now that the Chthonians had been exterminated or exiled to the Abyss. He was flush with his new divinity and his success on Infernus, and demonstrated his valour by declaring the entire former empire his domain and attacking almost all of the invading gods simultaneously, along with the remaining Zarosian loyalists. The God Wars then began in earnest." from zemouregal's memory.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

24-Feb-2015 23:05:16

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Derack said :
Hguoh said :

And no, Zamorak did not immediately invade Saradomin's lands. First he was taken to Infernus for a couple of years. Then he returned and the two of them allied together to crush the rest of Zaros's empire. It was after the Zarosian extermination that Zamorak somehow found out about Saradomin having the stone and demanded it back. Obviously Sara said no, and Zamorak resorted to more violent means.

"Nineteen years later, Zamorak returned to Gielinor at the head of an Avernic demon army even larger than the one Zaros had invaded with, although admittedly not as well-disciplined now that the Chthonians had been exterminated or exiled to the Abyss. He was flush with his new divinity and his success on Infernus, and demonstrated his valour by declaring the entire former empire his domain and attacking almost all of the invading gods simultaneously, along with the remaining Zarosian loyalists. The God Wars then began in earnest." from zemouregal's memory.


And like what we were talking about in the Lore FC you dont just bring back an army and try to claim you had no intentions of war and that you were dragged into it by others.
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- Aegis of Saradomin

25-Feb-2015 02:26:34 - Last edited on 25-Feb-2015 02:26:46 by Raxxess

Neo Bestia

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I don't know what people expected.

For me, this quest only highlighted Saradomin's outstanding determination and resolve to put an end to the wars, and this could include no less than Zamorak's demise.

He had already caused too much unnerving acts against Saradominism, which I'm sure you can all remember.

Of course Zamorakains will twist and bend this to no end to show a heroic god gravely misunderstood by a lunatic Saradomin, who just woke up one day to realise the evil of Zamorakianism and therefore decided to blast him to oblivion.

I'm afraid the cutscene only shows to me a pitiful display of self agrandizing and lack of any responsibility or remorse at what's he has done. And not satisfied with this asks the gods to be illuminated by his flawless philosophy and join him, like thousands of years of wars should not make you hold strong reservations against Zamorak.

But no. We're to believe Zamorak absolutely and clap at him like seals. Whilst of course the real culprit of overpowering a powerful ancient artifact and crippling Forinthry is Saradomin, who also can't seem to keep some vague promise of an alliance and no doubt started the God Wars.

25-Feb-2015 13:06:15

Mewzard
Dec Member 2023

Mewzard

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Was Zamorak reluctant to use the Stone for the right reasons, or did he just not want to nuke half of Zaros' old land, that he wanted as his own?

Was Zamorak offering some concessions in his negotiation (and willing to give some leeway to meet a peaceful resolution), or was he threatening death and destruction if they didn't "see his way"?

Those are important questions to ask (motive isn't the end all be all, but it matters).

Zamorak would have been at a disadvantage in negotiations at the time. Negotiations require a good deal of trust, and Zamorak's history has quite a notable betrayal in it (taking down Zaros was something of legend of Gielinor). You can argue it was to the gain of the other gods, but that's still a bad sign for the gods who could potentially also get backstabbed (if he took out a stronger god as a mortal, what could he do as a god).

Not to mention that (if this is the end of the war), they've dealt with fighting Zamorak for 4000 years. Saradomin probably remembers having to protect his Imcando Dwarves from Zamorak's Chaos Dwarf curse, and the deaths of many followers. Armadyl probably wasn't pleased with what the war did to the Aviansie. Bandos...well, Bandos probably wanted a go at Zamorak.

There was probably a fear of what would happen if he regrew his army and tried to repeat things all over again (plus some imperfect meshing of differing philosophy).

That whole war started over power (that all sides had equal claim to given they weren't the rightful owners, and both just grabbed the Stone when nobody else had it on hand), and by God, it ended with a show of power.

Regardless of who started it, it was not handled well (Bandos dragging the thing out for thousands of years with side-switching especially so). It's too late to redo the past, that's for sure. But the future? Maybe this "God War" can be handled better. Whether they want to or not, the gods will have to eventually get past their issues with one another for the greater threat.

25-Feb-2015 18:47:33

Raleirosen

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Neo Bestia said :
I don't know what people expected.

For me, this quest only highlighted Saradomin's outstanding determination and resolve to put an end to the wars, and this could include no less than Zamorak's demise.
I don't know about you, but I got the impression that Saradomin was overwhelmingly more concerned with the Stone than anything to do with the end of the God Wars. The transcript on the unofficial wiki isn't complete so I can't pull any direct evidence, unfortunately. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

25-Feb-2015 19:05:35

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Raleirosen said :
Neo Bestia said :
I don't know what people expected.

For me, this quest only highlighted Saradomin's outstanding determination and resolve to put an end to the wars, and this could include no less than Zamorak's demise.
I don't know about you, but I got the impression that Saradomin was overwhelmingly more concerned with the Stone than anything to do with the end of the God Wars. The transcript on the unofficial wiki isn't complete so I can't pull any direct evidence, unfortunately.

Why would he even care about fighting Zamorak's armies in the Godwars if he all cared about was the stone?

Saradomin has more reason to hate Zamorak than Armadyl or Bandos did. Like I said before in this post Zamorak gave Drakan extra troops and the go ahead to invade Hallowvale which was basically one of Saradomin's biggest cities on Gielinor, Invaded other Saradominists land. Kril almost killed Zilyana. And really that's the only time we know Saradomin actually used the stone, was to revive Zilyana. I mean he had every right to be angry with Zamorak.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

25-Feb-2015 19:14:59

Aterivus
Dec Member 2020

Aterivus

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Raxxess said :
Why would he even care about fighting Zamorak's armies in the Godwars if he all cared about was the stone?

Saradomin has more reason to hate Zamorak than Armadyl or Bandos did. Like I said before in this post Zamorak gave Drakan extra troops and the go ahead to invade Hallowvale which was basically one of Saradomin's biggest cities on Gielinor, Invaded other Saradominists land. Kril almost killed Zilyana. And really that's the only time we know Saradomin actually used the stone, was to revive Zilyana. I mean he had every right to be angry with Zamorak.

War is a give-and-take sort of deal. I agree Saradomin had a right to be angry at Zamorak, he did lose countless followers and settlements to him. In the same token, Zamorak lost a lot to Saradomin too - this is the nature of war, both sides inevitably gain and lose their footholds and resources over time, and perhaps regain some through victory.

I'm sure you noticed that, of all the Gods, Saradomin is perhaps the only one that came out of the Third Age with sizeable territory and near-complete acceptance of his ideaology. Whichever territories he ended up controlling by the end certainly weren't won through snuggly affectations - you can damn well bet his forces wiped out plenty of Zamorakians and took control of their territories as well.

Furthermore, Bandos comments to the defeated Zamorak that his armies lay in ruins on all sides, so I'm doubting Zamorak had many soldiers or followers left to fall back on (military-wise). And as for K'ril nearly killing Zilyana...uhh, so what? The two met in battle at Annakarl, it's not as if K'ril went on a personal must-slay-Zilyana endeavour...it's no different than any other two generals clashing in battle.

Point is, Saradomin has reason to hate Zamorak. He lost a lot to him over the course of the war. Zamorak also has reason to hate Saradomin; he, too, lost a lot over the course of the war. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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25-Feb-2015 21:21:59 - Last edited on 25-Feb-2015 21:25:17 by Aterivus

Dennorak
Jul Member 2020

Dennorak

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My problem with Saradomin is during the cutscene Zamorak is sitting there with the stone, a weapon of mass destruction, and instead of making any effort or letting Armadyl make any effort to talk him down, he only threatens Zamorak with death. So basically Zamorak don;t use the stone so I can kill you? What the hell did Saradomin think Zamorak was going to do?
Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

25-Feb-2015 21:56:16

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