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Neo Bestia

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I would under no circunstances call what Zamorak did as negotiating.

He just sat there grabbing the stone telling the Gods how great and awesome he was and that they should join him on account of his flawless ideology.

Of course Saradomin was having none of it and qualified Zamorak as he saw it fit.

I don't see the wrongdoing in either of them.

It's up to the player to decide which they believe is right, but let's stop pretending Saradomin's view is not just as much valid as Zamorak's.

24-Feb-2015 04:52:27 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2015 04:58:34 by Neo Bestia

Raleirosen

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The Mather1 said :
You'e missing the point there. You said that because of his previous military position, he wouldn't see a soldier's life as valuable. But a military commander isn't someone to whom a soldier is a number on paper, nor to whom the soldier is a "brave and loyal citizen". It is someone to whom the soldier is "that guy who always had a fancy beer at the local pub after training", "that kid with a salute so stiff he could be knocked over by a breeze" or "the awkward lefty he had to help commission different equipment".
You'd have a point, but remember that Zamorak is a Mahjarrat. Most of the soldiers he'd be ordering into battle would be humans or demons. Now I'm not saying that because he's a Mahjarrat Zammyzimzi**aroo wouldn't have any empathy for his (to him) alien troops. But, y'know. Probably not. I seriously, seriously doubt Zamorak fraternized with the human cannon fodder under his command. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

24-Feb-2015 05:20:59 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2015 05:27:15 by Raleirosen

Raxxess

Posts: 2,236 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The Mather1 said :
You'e missing the point there. You said that because of his previous military position, he wouldn't see a soldier's life as valuable. But a military commander isn't someone to whom a soldier is a number on paper, nor to whom the soldier is a "brave and loyal citizen". It is someone to whom the soldier is "that guy who always had a fancy beer at the local pub after training", "that kid with a salute so stiff he could be knocked over by a breeze" or "the awkward lefty he had to help commission different equipment".

That's vastly over thinking it. You said leaders of the nation don't care and he was the leader of the nation. He obviously knew by betraying Zaros he would have to kill and fight his former allies so I don't think he has this genuine concern for his soldiers.

It is like how he transformed the dwarves into chaos dwarves. In birthright we saw that regardless of which process is used the dwarves don't want to become chaos dwarves they lose part of their free will so I really don't think he cares much. But that is part of his philosophy chaos lets people shine and realize their potential or they fail.

Saradomin Lore clan

- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 15:30:14

Hguoh

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Raxxess said :
Zamorak was banished. The stone doesn't belong to Zamorak either its not his possession or Saradomin's or Guthix's. Regardless it was Zamorak who overthrew Zaros and used the fact that the empire was collapsing to start invading other lands, which ended up starting the wars.

I understand its the thing to show Saradomin as basically all evil and wrong doing and every other god is justified and can do no wrong. But when you do that it just undermines the entire character. Zamorak was the Legautus Maximus he is a military commander he doesn't see lives lost he sees the campaign and plays his cards where he can, and like most military leaders that do this if they do fail they will try to bring negotiations into it.

Saradomin obviously has a personal rivalry with Zamorak that Zamorak shares with Saradomin. Zemorgueal wouldn't trust anything Sliske tells him or tries to negotiate this is the same occurrence.

Let's clarify a few things here.
1. Zamorak was not banished after his fight with Zaros. He was taken to Infernos to fulfill his end of the bargain that got a couple Avernics to ally with him in the first place.
2. The stone didn't belong to Saradomin either so his claim to the stone is just as bogus. Considering neither of them believed Guthix existed (he was asleep before they got there) and nobody knew about the elder gods owning the stone, Zamorak was the first person to have possession of the stone that they knew of. So yes, in the circumstances of the time it was effectively his.

Now as for the rest of your post, it isn't that Saradomin is being portrayed as evil. Rather, it is being shown to us that he believes the ends justify the means. He will do whatever it takes to do what he thinks is right. This means doing anything, including slander, to get the stone back as he convinced he needs it to accomplish his goals (aka: he's addicted to it just like Zimzams and Sliske).

24-Feb-2015 15:31:19

Lord Bilrach

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Raxxess said :
The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin.

Really? From this cutscene it looks like the war started when Saradomin stabbed Zamorak in the back.

24-Feb-2015 15:49:11

Raxxess

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Lord Bilrach said :
Raxxess said :
The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin.

Really? From this cutscene it looks like the war started when Saradomin stabbed Zamorak in the back.

This is a memory from the past, the memory we have is when the godwars ended. The war way before this. Zamorak took the stone from Saradomin, then gave Drakan gave orders to invade Hallowvale. The memory we have is after his armies lost, because there was an an armistice between the four gods to re-imprison Nex something that Zamorak agreed to, and when they finished Nex the three went back to fighting Zamorak.

Saradomin Lore clan

- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 15:57:27

Lord Bilrach

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Raxxess said :
This is a memory from the past, the memory we have is when the godwars ended. The war way before this. Zamorak took the stone from Saradomin, then gave Drakan gave orders to invade Hallowvale. The memory we have is after his armies lost, because there was an an armistice between the four gods to re-imprison Nex something that Zamorak agreed to, and when they finished Nex the three went back to fighting Zamorak.

You are so confused with your dates...

Also, pretty sure he's referring to the removal of the Zarosian Empire, not Nex, which Armadyl and Bandos were a part of.

Raleirosen said :
You'd have a point, but remember that Zamorak is a Mahjarrat. Most of the soldiers he'd be ordering into battle would be humans or demons. Now I'm not saying that because he's a Mahjarrat Zammyzimzi**aroo wouldn't have any empathy for his (to him) alien troops. But, y'know. Probably not. I seriously, seriously doubt Zamorak fraternized with the human cannon fodder under his command.

Certainly enough to get invested in the demon's rebellion for freedom and, maybe I'm being biased, but it feels like Zamorak has one of the closest relationships with his followers with Zaros being the only other God who compares in that regard.

24-Feb-2015 16:00:44 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2015 16:04:47 by Lord Bilrach

Raxxess

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Hguoh said :

Let's clarify a few things here.
1. Zamorak was not banished after his fight with Zaros. He was taken to Infernos to fulfill his end of the bargain that got a couple Avernics to ally with him in the first place.
2. The stone didn't belong to Saradomin either so his claim to the stone is just as bogus. Considering neither of them believed Guthix existed (he was asleep before they got there) and nobody knew about the elder gods owning the stone, Zamorak was the first person to have possession of the stone that they knew of. So yes, in the circumstances of the time it was effectively his.

Now as for the rest of your post, it isn't that Saradomin is being portrayed as evil. Rather, it is being shown to us that he believes the ends justify the means. He will do whatever it takes to do what he thinks is right. This means doing anything, including slander, to get the stone back as he convinced he needs it to accomplish his go

I think the problem with Saradomin is people don't realize how to put themselves in a situation.

Saradomin was truthfully in the right. First off Zamorak wasn't negotiating he had the stone and only wanted the world to live chaos, there was no give on his side he wanted the world to live in Chaos and was ready to use the stone to accomplish this.

We also know that Saradomin was on Gielinor before the other gods so he knows the Zamorak betrayed Zaros, he also knows that as soon as this happened Zamorak ordered the invasion of Saradominist lands. Wouldn't you be kind of ticked off if the guy who at every turn attacked you is trying to negotiate now that he finally bit off more than he can chew.

Saradomin Lore clan

- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 16:03:04

Hguoh

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Let's clarify the God Wars, shall we?

First, Zamorak slays Zaros.

Second, he is taken to Infernus for a few centuries in order to liberate the Avernic demons as he promised.

Third at some point while Zammy is fighting in Infernus, Saradomin finds, claims, and hides the stone that Zammy left behind after his fight with Zaros (and Armadyl reclaimed his staff at approximately the same time).

Fourth, Zammy returns and allies with Saradomin to eliminate the remains of the Zarosian empire.

Fifth once the Zarosian extermination has been completed, Zamorak somehow found out that Saradomin had the Stone of Jas (an object that he considered to be his as no previous owners were known about at the time.

Sixth, Zammy demands the stone back, Saradomin refuses (because he believes Zammy would use it for evil, although this is in part likely caused by his addiction to the stone's power), and **mzam resorts to forcibly attempting to reclaim the stone (believing it is necessary for him to have it at all costs due to his own addiction to the stone's power).

Thus the God Wars began.

24-Feb-2015 16:05:54

Raxxess

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Lord Bilrach said :
Raxxess said :
Lord Bilrach said :
Raxxess said :
The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin.

Really? From this cutscene it looks like the war started when Saradomin stabbed Zamorak in the back.

This is a memory from the past, the memory we have is when the godwars ended. The war way before this. Zamorak took the stone from Saradomin, then gave Drakan gave orders to invade Hallowvale. The memory we have is after his armies lost, because there was an an armistice between the four gods to re-imprison Nex something that Zamorak agreed to, and when they finished Nex the three went back to fighting Zamorak.

You are so confused with your dates...

Also, pretty sure he's referring to the removal of the Zarosian Empire, not Nex, which Armadyl and Bandos were a part of.

Armadyl didn't come till the 3rd age. Zamorak betraying Zaros happened in the second age. The third age is basically the god wars. I mean I don't how else to explain it the god wars ended after Fort was blown up because that is when guthix awoke and that was the memory we were seeing Zamorak even says "If I'm going I'm taking you with me"

Saradomin Lore clan

- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 16:06:59

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