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Raxxess

Raxxess

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It seems people have only focused on the small piece we got from a cutscene with the stone of jas but have forgotten the entire rest of the lore associated with that point in time.

Zamorak was at war with everyone. Why trust his diplomacy if his track record is betrayal.

Its like "oh he was trying to talk out how noble" this is after he lost the war. It would be much more admirable if he tried to reason before or during the conflict. Trying to negotiate after you have lost the ability to continue a war effort really doesn't hold much good intention and then he nuked it so...
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 04:02:51

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Aterivus said :
Neo Bestia said :
Even so, I only see that cutscene making zamorak look rather pitiful.

...Because he actually tried diplomacy, actually tried being reasonable? He was backed-in to a corner by his enemies, and despite having the object of untold power at his disposal he actually DIDN'T opt to be too quick to use it.

Despite multiple attempts at such reasoning, everyone still jumped aboard the "you have to die and your ideaology has to die with you" train, with the added bonus of Saradomin screaming "MADNESS!" and saying the Stone is his to own. Sure, Armadyl warned him of the dangers of the Stone, and yet he still continued to be on the back-him-into-a-corner team.

It's pretty funny that, had he just used the Stone without a second thought, he'd be seen as an unrepentent monster...yet taking the course of (attempting to) reason makes it pitiful. Damned if you do, damned if you don't .
^ This
I'm no one's servant!

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24-Feb-2015 04:05:15

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Raxxess said :
Hguoh said :
The essence of what Saradomin said amounted to: kill Zamorak; he's evil; he can't be reasoned with; kill him; and the stone will be mine. I can completely sympathize with Zammy wanting to take out Saradomin once and for all.

That doesn't mean that I don't hold him at fault for being willing to sacrifice every living thing in Forinthry in order to do so.

I think the reason that this is getting so much attention is due to Mr. Order and Wisdom devolving effectively into one of the girls who accused women of witchcraft in Salem, Massachusetts.

I wouldn't relate it to that. It was a war. I think its a good hint going forward that whoever has the stone is more than likely to be ganged up. Especially now that we know it has an addiction quality to it.

At this point, it wasn't a war. Zamorak was alone and his armies defeated. He sat there with a WMD and Saradomin kept spouting: EVIL!!! MADNESS!!! Evilevilevilevil! Meanwhile, Zammy attempted to negotiate with the two other gods present who had been spoon-fed the Zamorak is evil propaganda ever since the start of the war.

And it was an utterly baseless claim too. Zamorak brought down the god who was the enemy of every other god on Gielinor. He liberated the Avernic slaves from the Chthonians. He helped Saradomin eliminate the rest of the Zarosian empire (which was again considered the evilest of evils).

All he wanted was what he considered to be his property, which Saradomin took after Zamorak was taken to Infernus.

Personally, all this shows me is that both Zammy and Sara are so addicted to the stone's power that either one will do whatever it takes to get their hands on it and keep it. It doesn't matter how many people have to die, how much destruction must be wrought, or how they have to acquire the stone. To them, the end justifies the means when it comes to the stone.

24-Feb-2015 04:11:20

Raxxess

Raxxess

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The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin. Then Zamorak gave orders to invade Hallowvale to Drakan and sent extra forces.

It would be dumb to say that some faction doesn't have a blame in war, but its just as dumb to say the aggressor doesn't have a bit of extra blame on their hands.
Saradomin Lore clan
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24-Feb-2015 04:11:39 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2015 04:13:45 by Raxxess

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Raxxess said :
The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin. Then Zamorak gave orders to invade Hallowvale to Drakan and sent extra forces.

It would be dumb to say that some faction doesn't have a blame war, but its just as dumb to say the aggressor doesn't have a bit of extra blame on their hands.

Perhaps some people sympathize with the guy who had his possession taken rather than the guy who took it, 'because it is safer in his hands.'

Some could say that Saradomin was the aggressor in taking the stone and not returning it.

24-Feb-2015 04:14:13

Raxxess

Raxxess

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Hguoh said :
Raxxess said :
The Mather1 said :
He's in a war with everyone because Saradomin and Armadyl decided to try to get rid of him and Bandos decided Zamorak was still probably stronger.

The war was started when Zamorak returned from Banished to take the Stone from Saradomin. Then Zamorak gave orders to invade Hallowvale to Drakan and sent extra forces.

It would be dumb to say that some faction doesn't have a blame war, but its just as dumb to say the aggressor doesn't have a bit of extra blame on their hands.

Perhaps some people sympathize with the guy who had his possession taken rather than the guy who took it, 'because it is safer in his hands.'

Some could say that Saradomin was the aggressor in taking the stone and not returning it.

Zamorak was banished. The stone doesn't belong to Zamorak either its not his possession or Saradomin's or Guthix's. Regardless it was Zamorak who overthrew Zaros and used the fact that the empire was collapsing to start invading other lands, which ended up starting the wars.

I understand its the thing to show Saradomin as basically all evil and wrong doing and every other god is justified and can do no wrong. But when you do that it just undermines the entire character. Zamorak was the Legautus Maximus he is a military commander he doesn't see lives lost he sees the campaign and plays his cards where he can, and like most military leaders that do this if they do fail they will try to bring negotiations into it.

Saradomin obviously has a personal rivalry with Zamorak that Zamorak shares with Saradomin. Zemorgueal wouldn't trust anything Sliske tells him or tries to negotiate this is the same occurrence.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 04:20:44

The Mather1
May Member 2008

The Mather1

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Raxxess said :
Zamorak was the Legautus Maximus he is a military commander he doesn't see lives lost he sees the campaign and plays his cards where he can, and like most military leaders that do this if they do fail they will try to bring negotiations into it.
I think you've got that backwards. It's a nation's leader who sees the campaign over the lives. A military commander is the guy who has the send the guys off and live with the missing faces when they return.
"Abscondita est in Astra."

24-Feb-2015 04:34:41

Raxxess

Raxxess

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The Mather1 said :
Raxxess said :
Zamorak was the Legautus Maximus he is a military commander he doesn't see lives lost he sees the campaign and plays his cards where he can, and like most military leaders that do this if they do fail they will try to bring negotiations into it.
I think you've got that backwards. It's a nation's leader who sees the campaign over the lives. A military commander is the guy who has the send the guys off and live with the missing faces when they return.

Zamorak was the nation's leader after they rebelled. He basically annexed what was the Zarosian empire save Sennintisen. He gave Drakan the go ahead to invade Hallowvale which was basically Saradomin's Capital on Gielinor at the time.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

24-Feb-2015 04:38:39

The Mather1
May Member 2008

The Mather1

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You'e missing the point there. You said that because of his previous military position, he wouldn't see a soldier's life as valuable. But a military commander isn't someone to whom a soldier is a number on paper, nor to whom the soldier is a "brave and loyal citizen". It is someone to whom the soldier is "that guy who always had a fancy beer at the local pub after training", "that kid with a salute so stiff he could be knocked over by a breeze" or "the awkward lefty he had to help commission different equipment".
"Abscondita est in Astra."

24-Feb-2015 04:48:31

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