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History of the Kinshra - Edits

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Jakir

Jakir

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The following are changes I would like to see:
Chapter 3:
1) "saw opportunity in the chaos...the chance to forge a new kingdom for his favoured god, Zamorak." replaced with something like "saw the possibility for evolution in the chaos. For it presented the motivation to forge a new kingdom, one which could be shaped in the image of Zamorak. Strength through Chaos."

2) "Lord of Chaos and Death" changed to something less biased sounding like just "Zamorak" or as this is a Kinshra document put a positive spin on it like "Lord of Destruction and Rebirth".

Chapter 4:
1) "but devoting another order to Saradomin would be erring on the side of favouritism." sounds like a silly reason to make an order of dark knights, perhaps instead say something like "but Saradomin's followers had grown too numerous and another powerful order in his name could cause imbalance on a scale that would violate the edicts."

Chapter 5:
1) I don't buy the intro here about Zamorakians being mostly working class. Some of the highest members of the court were Zamorakians and surely a large number of farmers and craftsman and soldiers were Saradominist. I would suggest instead replacing "whether due to conflicting religious..." with "as the Kinshra were intended to be their polar opposite to bring balance to realm although truth be told both were honorable orders of knights even if the Kinshra were given the dirtier jobs which often required methods Saradominists would not approve of. Both did great service to the realm. In fact without the Kinshra the White Knight's ability was found lacking and a special "by any means" group known as the Temple Knights had to be formed to compensate."

2) Remove "and for the only known time in history" as it wasn't and the orders worked together in Legacy of Blood.

Chapter 6:
1) Kinshra called "black knights" in 2nd par even though expressly stated earlier they do not like being called that. Small detail but the novel is written by a Kinshra agent.

18-Feb-2015 05:20:39

Jakir

Jakir

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2) In the 4th par perhaps reword "It finally became clear to him that these two orders were vicious rivals." with "It finally became clear to him that an error had been made in trying to maintain balance by having opposing orders operate in the same area."

3) End the chapter with "For Zamorakians thrive in the challenges before them and would make the kingdom prosperous and strong." It is important to establish to the Kinshra ZimZam is helping this kingdom and not just taking it over and being evil.

Chapter 8:
1) Remove the part about dark rituals being the case. It is silly the Kinshra would make themselves sound like "the bad guys" instead use something like "It was rumoured that his longevity was a gift from Zamorak to lead the Kinshra through this trial by fire and temper their spirit like steel."

2) Honestly I would just cut out the entire last paragraph. Or replace it with "And to honor his passing it was decreed no other man should ever lead the order as per his final request."

Chapter 9:
1) I would include mention of the betrayal in the first par like "With the loss of Valzin's wealth and influence caused by the false accusations of the white knights and public betrayal of the king, the members of the Kinshra order declared that they would no longer recognise the legitimacy of King Raddallin's government or his claim to the throne."

2) The Kinshra shouldn't record themselves as treasonous in the last sentence. Instead say something like "Even though these words could be considered treason King Raddallin left the declaration unchallenged for he was ashamed of his own actions when he caved in to public pressure. His shame and subsequent lack of action allowed the Kinshra to flourish." (The king might not have been ashamed and that may not be why he didn't act but this kind of propaganda makes sense in a Kinshra document)

18-Feb-2015 05:46:17 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2015 05:55:26 by Jakir

Jakir

Jakir

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P.S. If you think my suggestions about adding some Guthixian flavor to the text were misplaced in a Kinshra document remember this document was describing a king who allowed both Saradominist and Zamorakian orders to be established so he clearly had to have some reasoning there and this makes the most sense to me.

18-Feb-2015 05:46:24

William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

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@ Lord Drakan

Hmm. So that actually *is* in Betrayal at Falador. Of course, that doesn't necessarily follow that we should have to include it here, and considering a) Of the two of us I've been the one more determined to stay true to the novels throughout this project and b) you prefer holding to the old view of Zamorak (I heard about the conflicts you were involved in on the Wikia fansite), your motives come into question. But we may talk about this later.

@ Wahisietel

I came on just now to bring up another topic - The part about the burning of the tower. You remember how I was asking you guys to tweet Mod John A and ask him certain questions relating to tarot and his research into it? There was a reason for that.

I learned how Mod John A had included references to tarot in the Ariane quests... But how he hadn't been able to reference the card "The Tower" to the extent that he wanted. Mod John A's a great guy, and I thought we could do this for him by including said references in the Kinshra book. The fact that he's left by now made me even more keen - It would have been a homage of sorts. (I really respected Mod John A for a couple reasons. You can check the old thread I dedicated to him on the Compliments forum for details)

Unfortunately, the rewriting done to the passage unintentionally removed the tarot references.

Let me post the original passage:
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

18-Feb-2015 09:36:32 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2015 09:39:39 by William Witt

William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

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Original message details are unavailable.
Then, in the 70th year of the Fifth Age, a sudden change occurred. The dark wizards betrayed their fellow mages, and with them all of mankind. The great tower in the south of Misthalin was burnt to the ground. The impact of this was felt in both kingdoms, and the people were forced to realise the truth as the image they had held of the dark wizards came crashing down around them. While this disillusionment was an uncomfortable experience for them, for the Kinshra it was something far worse: It was their downfall.

Simply looking up "The Tower" on the internet will show how this passage was written specifically to heavily reference The Tower tarot card - Anyone familiar with the subject matter would easily notice, and thus I found it a very nice and prominent way to complete John A's work - Anyone have any disagreements?


@ Wolfie

Hey, thanks! I've skimmed over your stuff - I'll take a more thorough look later, but thank you so much for taking the time to contribute like this. Input from other lorehounds has been kind of scant. Look forward to discussing this with you.
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

18-Feb-2015 09:38:27 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2015 09:46:38 by William Witt

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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@Kitty: My...motives? O_o Either way, the connection is also explored in the Abyss miniquests.

@Wolfie: I would be more inclined to acknowledge your suggestions here, at least some of which are definitely good, if you hadn't repeatedly insulted and offended both me and Kitty grossly both in-game and on Twitter. You can't expect us, no matter how brilliant your suggestions may be, to discuss anything properly until that is cleared up. Just saying.

@Kitty tower: Which part exactly references the tarot thing? I reckon it'd be best to paste that bit into the paragraph as it is now rather than rephrase it entirely, in order to lessen the burden on Jagex (mostly translation).

Oh, and, if it still matters, the answer John gave to the question where the tarot things came from was W*kipedia and a friend of his. (not verbatim) Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

18-Feb-2015 11:03:02

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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If you mean 'replace the relevant bit in the text with the quoted paragraph' I would strongly disagree. It's missing several story details and also adds some anti-Zamorakianism...

Looking at a few websites on the tarot card, including the elements of realisation and ruin as well as the obvious destruction would suffice. Should be instantly recognisable to tarot fans.

What about:
Original message details are unavailable.
In the seventieth year of the Fifth Age, a sudden wind of change blew through the human lands as disaster struck: the great tower of magic in the south of Misthalin was burnt to the ground. The incident was blamed on the dark wizards, who were said to have attacked the tower, and the frightening realisation dawned upon the people of Asgarnia that the wizards they had trusted had betrayed them.

Their good name in ruins, Zamorakians from both Asgarnia and Misthalin pre-emptively defended their brethren's actions, but this served only to seal their fate across the continent. It was no longer safe to outwardly support Zamorak.

While the order etc.... Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

18-Feb-2015 11:33:19

Jakir

Jakir

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@Drakan the way I look at it this entire situation has been damaging enough to the lore community and getting player based content put into the game without you dragging drama in here. The best course of action is to fix this situation as productively as possible without dragging drama in here like you are attempting to do and maybe just maybe we can make this right and still have more player submitted content in the future.

And regardless of what you think I did (Insulting Kitty by saying you treated him like scum and should apologize?) Doesn't make my suggestions any more or less valid so in addition to not being productive and causing your damage to spread even further your comments also are not relevant in the slightest. For example I haven't attempted to discredit any lore based suggestions you have made just because you are backstabbing scum. (Which is actually a legit claim unlike the random crap you made up)

Now I strongly suggest you drop it unless your goal is to get this topic locked and cement the damage you have done.

18-Feb-2015 16:46:47

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