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History of the Kinshra - Edits

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Jakir

Jakir

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Wahisietel said :
I disagree with most of Wolfie's suggested changes.


That isn't very helpful. If you remember Jagex's feedback guidelines it helps to say why something works/doesn't work instead of just "lol worst content evar111010111". Also I'm not really surprised considering we disagree about almost everything so given that and the lack of supporting statements you've made I kinda have to wonder if this also might be more personal than practical. I would ask you to examine your own feelings and make sure what you are saying is strictly professional before continuing.

18-Feb-2015 22:04:20

Lord Bilrach

Lord Bilrach

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Let's NOT drag personal drama into this, OK? Anyway, I agree with a lot of what Wolfie's saying. The Kinshra don't necessarily need to be biased, but some of this does sound like it's coming from a Saradominist mindset, which is a bit jarring.

I mentioned one earlier about how weird it was that the Kinshra up and admit their founder doesn't want them around anymore than their predecessors twisted his words. Again, they don't have to be biased, but you'd think there would at least be some form of justification slipped in there, wouldn't you? Even if it's something like "Not wanting their troops to lose moral, his words were cleverly misinterpreted by his highest ranking officers to be a declaration that no man - but himself - should ever lead the order." or something like that.

19-Feb-2015 18:06:09

William Witt
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William Witt

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@ Wolfie

Okay, then! Let's get to it.

Chapter 3:

1) Hmm, I assume this is to give a more clearly Zamorakian flavor to his motivation? It actually does sound kinda cool.

2) My original text here was "The order of mages at that time contained many dark wizards, also followers of the chaos god." (On that note, I think RS uses "mages", not "magi"...)


Chapter 4:

1) Text here was

Original message details are unavailable.
A day came when the nobleman persuaded Raddallin that he could better aid the expansion of their kingdom if he were allowed to form his own order of warriors. Yet faith, Lord Valzin argued, was a great motivator in creating effective warriors. Were the Knights of Falador not a prime example of this? Devoting another order to Saradomin would be redundant, however. No, Lord Valzin’s warriors would swear fealty to another god: Zamorak.


Do you think redundancy makes better sense? That being said, it actually seems to be Jagex who made it "erring on the side of favoritism"; The document version Fswe sent said Original message details are unavailable.
Valzin argued that faith was a great motivator in creating effective warriors, the White Knights of Saradomin were an excellent example, but devoting another order to Saradomin would be superfluous.



Chapter 5:

1) Jagex added the working class bit as far as I'm aware - I like the premise of your text, though. Maybe we *could* change it to yours... But if Jagex decide that it should still be in there, I'll go with their final say on the matter.

2) Yeah, I personally tried to avoid statements like that that would have a high risk of lorebreak. I had this bit as

Original message details are unavailable.
Hordes of creatures fell upon the tribes of men, and though the two groups had differing reasons, neither wished the western tribes to fall. Setting aside their differences, they formed an alliance to fight in defence of the land. With the dark wizards, and under King Raddallin’s command, the two fought side by side.


(continued in next post)
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

20-Feb-2015 06:54:36 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2015 07:07:46 by William Witt

William Witt
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William Witt

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For the same reason, I don't think this bit should be here... Original message details are unavailable.
In the years that followed, the rivalry between the knights was the only threat the kingdom faced, apart from the barbarian invasions from the west.


Actually, if it hadn't been for me, not even the barbarian invasions would've been mentioned; The first doc sent to Stu didn't even mention those and said that the rivalry was the only threat. :|

Chapter 6:

1) I think the bit about them not liking being called that was added by Jagex. However: That brings me to a separate but related point of my own. See, I had the "White Knights" referred to throughout the text as the "Knights of Falador". This is what the novels call them, so I figure that's probably their "real" name in the same way that "the Kinshra" is the real name of the black knights. If we do alter this, then Jagex's bit about them not liking the name wouldn't apply anymore.

2) I'll give my opinion on the Guthixian balance thing at the end.

3) I'm not sure; I was thinking of maybe leaving it open to interpretation whether the Kinshra are "true" Zamorakians or not, but I can probably be persuaded otherwise.


Chapter 8:

1) Yeah... Dark rituals weren't originally in there. It was originally "Some said his longevity was a gift from Zamorak, who had further plans for him."

2) Discussed with Hazeel earlier in the thread, actually.


Chapter 9:
1) "wealth" wasn't originally in there; It was Original message details are unavailable.
With the loss of his influence, there was no longer anything to allow the Kinshra further time in Falador. Thus did the members of the order, now leaderless and with bitterness in their hearts, prepare for the journey north. On the day of their departure, the Kinshra declared that they would no longer recognise the legitimacy of King Raddallin’s government or his claim to the throne.


(cont)
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

20-Feb-2015 06:54:54 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2015 07:23:16 by William Witt

William Witt
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William Witt

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The intended meaning being that Valzin was the only thing allowing them to stay in Falador, and now that he was dead they had to go.

The reason mentions of them leaving were cut from the final document actually seems to be due to Jagex (as mentioned in earlier pages) - They seem to have misunderstood "march" (which was referring to a border territory controlled by a marquess), and so reworded that bit to say Valzin "led" a march north. I assume they cut the later parts about the Kinshra leaving because they thought the Kinshra had *already* left in the "march".

2) You have a good point there. Even the original text here was "King Raddallin looked darkly upon these words of treason, but allowed them to depart Falador unm
<censorevade>
olested."

However, I personally think your suggested replacement has too good a chance of being taken as truth by the reader (which would be the point of propaganda, but still). What if we put quotation marks around "treason"..?


Now then! The Guthixian thing. My thinking was that he allowed a Zamorakian order because it was a different time back then, pre-Tower burning (and also maybe because Valzin had him wrapped around his finger) - but I actually seeded a foreshadowy hint early on in the text that he would ultimately favor the Saradominists when it came to it. Said hint is still in there, fortunately... But I'm not sure I want to give away what it is! Can you spot it?
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

20-Feb-2015 06:54:59 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2015 07:39:54 by William Witt

William Witt
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William Witt

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@ Lord Drakan

Certain bits of what you said there actually sound quite good. I don't think it references tarot obviously enough, though - Even people familiar with the subject might not realize the proposed paragraph was meant to be referencing tarot, which I think might defeat the purpose. But with some adjustment...

(Also, this isn't important, but I should point out that "tarot fans" aren't the idea here - Tarot has occult associations (people claim to be able to use the cards to divine the future), so it adds a certain spooky mysticism to the material - Which is the very reason, of course, why John A incorporated it into Wizards' Tower quests.)
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

20-Feb-2015 07:33:03 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2015 07:35:20 by William Witt

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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I agree with some of your changes, so I'm just going to run through some of them. I'll be brief.

Chapter 3:
1.) Agreed.

2.) Agreed, although I'd probably go with something along the lines of "Lord of chaos and strength" or "Father of invention (or progress)". I somewhat favor the latter. As things currently stand, the player kind of pulls that title out of nowhere. It would make more sense if it was commonly used among Zamorakians.

Chapter 4:
1.) I probably wouldn't go with violating the edicts as the reason, but I do agree that the original reason should be changed. Using favoritism makes it just sound petty.

Chapter 5:
1.) I strongly disagree here. It makes perfect sense for many Zamorakians to be from working class backgrounds as Zamorakianism basically advocates that everyone has the potential to rise above their current status regardless of their origins. Just because some members of the court were Zamorakian, it doesn't mean that the majority weren't from a lower class. Perhaps some of the higher ranking officials were from humble beginnings themselves.

2.) If I recall correctly, the White Knights did*’t actually get involved during Tenebra’s attempted invasion of Misthalin. Varrock sent an envoy (Kara-Meir) to meet with the Kinshra before the White Knights. They originally planned on turning down Daquarius’ offer so that they could accept aid from the White Knights instead, but the aid of the Kinshra became much more important when an escort for the essence was required. That being said, they worked together during the void knight quest series.

Chapter 6:
1.) Sure.

2.) I don’t mind either way.

3.) Sure.

Chapter 8:
1.) Seeing as Daquarius commissioned it to be written, ok. Otherwise, there are plenty of extremists in the Kinshra who probably wouldn’t mind.

2.) I don’t know what I would replace it with, but it does seem really weird that the Kinshra would admit to the fact that their founder wanted their order to be dissolved.

Chapter 9:
1.) Maybe.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Feb-2015 21:03:04

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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2.) I would just phrase it like this: “King Raddallin looked darkly upon these word, but left them unchallenged, out of respect for his late comrade.”
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Feb-2015 21:03:17

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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I really hope that you keep the part about working class backgrounds. It may seem like a small detail, but it's fitting and provides a good reason for why Zamorakianism would have remained popular during the time.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Feb-2015 21:07:07

Jakir

Jakir

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That is actually a good point about Theodore being the only white knight at the invasion. For some reason I always headcanon'd that if the black knights were helping everyone possible must be sending aid. While it wasn't stated and could be false I think it makes sense. At the very least I think we should leave the possibility open of the Black & White knights working together.

As for the working class thing my main issue wasn't that the majority of Zamorakians are working class it is that the majority of Saradominists are working class as well. Sure you can argue that the White Knights exist but so do the Black Knights and evidently at the time most members of the court were secretly Zamorakian so I don't think they would look down on others of their order too much. Basically when I think of Saradominist* I think of villagers and farmers like the story with the Icyene farming colony.

I think more or less everything else I said was met with general approval/apathy.

edit: @Kitty Hmmm can't seem to find your hint unless it was the secret filling of the court with Zamorakians which would imply they thought they needed to be hidden and were going to be on the unfavored side.

21-Feb-2015 06:42:47 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2015 06:51:45 by Jakir

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