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Godless or Zaros?

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Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Baxtorian said :
Depends. Do You want to be a puppet, or as You phrased it, carve Your own fate? Zaros has kept saying to us that he doesn't want to control mortals. If he did, there would have been no reason for him to distance himself from his empire. His reputation as a controlling being has only risen from his ability to instil loyalty to those in close proximity to him.

Let's look back at what happened with his invasion of the Kharidian Lands. He had legions of demons and vampyres on his side, and so far he used what knowledge he attained from studying the Chthonians, who themselves had controlling aspects in their way of life coming from writing contracts, finding loopholes in the law etc. His army were tearing into the Kharidians until Icthlarin and Amascut brought the Mahjarrat over, and turned the tables.

Then after the Mahjarrat left and went to Zaros who had taught them to use their rituals more efficiently, the Kharidians once again were pushed to their limit, until Tumeken arrived and razed the jungles into desert.
"I realised that I had become what I was fighting against. From that point on, I slowly started to remove my presence from the empire."


It should also be noted that the mortals chose to go with Zaros back then, they weren't coerced. If doing bad things instantly makes someone a bad person, why are there still Saradominists? And why are there people who think Zamorak might be good? The fact that Zaros detached himself from the empire knowing that his ability to instil loyalty can be used to control mortals, just comes to show that Zarosians follow him completely out of their free will. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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06-Aug-2016 10:11:52

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

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Baxtorian said :
What is Zaros a God of?

What would a controlling deity tell one, especially asset as valuable as the WG? I can tell you what the kind of god you think Zaros is wouldn't say, even if trying to hide his true nature. "Until then, do as you would always do. Choose your path. Follow whatever philosophy or god you desire"
The kind of god the Zaros disbelievers tend to make of him would NEVER say this. If he wanted to control us, no amount of "being incognito" makes this okay. Saying this means that from here on out, saying or doing anything that even looks like he's trying to "control" us makes him an obvious liar, immediately.

Another thing Zaros would never say if he was lying is telling us how he "Forces loyalty from people, against their will. Not to worry World Guardian, you seem immune to this effect." Making us aware of that fact is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing he could do if trying to control us, because he's now taking away his greatest means of control.
One key thing in the arguments against Zaros say that he's very manipulative and will say whatever he has to, to get what he wants. Even IF he is lying, saying this is FAR TOO DANGEROUS. We are now AWARE of his ability to make people loyal AND of our resistance, if he suddenly starts trying to control us we are now psychologically programmed to LOOK FOR IT immediately. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

09-Aug-2016 06:50:41

Quael
Jan Member 2018

Quael

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Gazebo said :
So.. join V ? All about doing it yourself - and not requiring worship.

Not true. Yes V is about non worship, but the belief is of you being a Hero, the faction is for you to uphold his view and have a world full of heroes, so like that there isn't much threat towards it.

The Godless are those of doing things yourself without the gods help. And have no higher figure to worship.

V and Godless share one goal. Is to protect Gielinor. While V is to be a figure of hero, and Godless is against the God. V gives you the choice to decide your own decision, despite the plan he had for a Godless world. While the Godless are against the God, and hope you decide against them, if required to.
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12-Aug-2016 00:47:36

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Sepulchre said :
I can tell you what the kind of god you think Zaros is wouldn't say, even if trying to hide his true nature. "Until then, do as you would always do. Choose your path. Follow whatever philosophy or god you desire"
The kind of god the Zaros disbelievers tend to make of him would NEVER say this. If he wanted to control us, no amount of "being incognito" makes this okay. Saying this means that from here on out, saying or doing anything that even looks like he's trying to "control" us makes him an obvious liar, immediately.
No... no... no. We've had this discussion before, but fortunately I'll never tire of it.

Your quote simply doesn't contradict Zaros being a god of control. It also wouldn't make Zaros a liar were he to make an overt attempt to control us (he won't), because Zaros does not need us to follow him or his philosophy in order for him to get us to do what he wants. All he needs (and wants) to do is to guide. Our path is up to us, so long as we make the correct pit stops.

Sepulchre said :
Another thing Zaros would never say if he was lying is telling us how he "Forces loyalty from people, against their will. Not to worry World Guardian, you seem immune to this effect." Making us aware of that fact is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing he could do if trying to control us, because he's now taking away his greatest means of control.
Again, no. His statement is already meaningless because of the weasel word "seem," but even disregarding that it does not support your argument. In fact your last statement is flat out wrong; his aura of loyalty is his weakest means of control. His greatest is making you actually trust him.

He does this by being up front, being affable, answering questions, reassuring you of his intent not to take direct control. Forgoing force is the ABSOLUTE BEST thing he can do to achieve his aims. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

16-Aug-2016 06:54:44 - Last edited on 16-Aug-2016 07:01:23 by Raleirosen

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

Posts: 5,069 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Sepulchre said :
One key thing in the arguments against Zaros say that he's very manipulative and will say whatever he has to, to get what he wants. Even IF he is lying, saying this is FAR TOO DANGEROUS. We are now AWARE of his ability to make people loyal AND of our resistance, if he suddenly starts trying to control us we are now psychologically programmed to LOOK FOR IT immediately.
Funny, looks like you've had the exact opposite reaction, given your vehement defense of Zaros and your consistent denial that he's trying to manipulate us in any way.

You've fallen hook, line and sinker, my friend. Looking forward to FOTG2 so we can get some delicious new details on Zaros' machinations. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

16-Aug-2016 06:57:24

Apotheostate
Mar Member 2015

Apotheostate

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I used to like Zaros for no reason other than that he's purple and made of crystal and the unrefined essence of darkness (how much more badass can you get?). When I started actually caring about the lore I initially sided with the Godless simply because I'm not a big fan of the ideologies of any of the other gods, but then I realized the Godless have an agenda of their own. They're really not any better than the gods they fight.

Now I side with Vorago. I'd say that's what Guthix would have wanted. Rather than following the militant dogmas of the Godless, you can instead simply choose to protect Geilinor from anything that might threaten it, be it a god or not. Nothing more and nothing less. This seems to be Vorago's philosophy, and while he seems to be loosely associated with the Godless, he has made it clear that he is not a member of the Godless and cares not for their overall agenda.

The downside is we don't get a "of Vorago" title. :x We should die for the things we believe in
Not live our lives in the dark - self-deceiving

16-Aug-2016 07:27:36

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

Posts: 5,732 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Apotheostate said :
I used to like Zaros for no reason other than that he's purple and made of crystal and the unrefined essence of darkness (how much more badass can you get?). When I started actually caring about the lore I initially sided with the Godless simply because I'm not a big fan of the ideologies of any of the other gods, but then I realized the Godless have an agenda of their own. They're really not any better than the gods they fight.

Now I side with Vorago. I'd say that's what Guthix would have wanted. Rather than following the militant dogmas of the Godless, you can instead simply choose to protect Geilinor from anything that might threaten it, be it a god or not. Nothing more and nothing less. This seems to be Vorago's philosophy, and while he seems to be loosely associated with the Godless, he has made it clear that he is not a member of the Godless and cares not for their overall agenda.

The downside is we don't get a "of Vorago" title. :x I think Vorago is an Elder creation, though. He used to be a being of destruction (this being somewhat in line with Wen who is the Elder God of inversion and in some ways death), who became sealed into the earth and is effectively one with the Anima Mundi. He says that he's also aware of the Living Rock creatures and they tend to him in some ways. This gave me the basis in believing that Wen created him to destroy and chip the earth, while Bik nurtures him from time to time so he could fulfil his duties for the anima. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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16-Aug-2016 17:22:31

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